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Old 09-06-2012, 17:18   #16
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Thousands of professionally trained people around the world kill themselves and others every week on the roads........**it happens...
And many more untrained people do the same.
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Old 09-06-2012, 18:12   #17
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Yes, but this pair of numpties live on a island 5 miles across. You would have thought they would have noticed the rocks all around the coast occasionally. Still should keep the shipwrights gainfully employed for a while.

Pete
My point is i have come across some very highly trained pillock's in my time, these are the ones that usually donít miss an opportunity to flash there professionally obtained credentials to all that will listen, are so convinced in their ability that they take risks that any prudent sailor would baulk at, these are the truly dangerous individuals out there. At least if they are untrained and inexperienced they have an excuse no matter how idiotic that sounds......what excuses do the professionally trained experts who do these sorts of things on a regular basis have ? ....

I am not against training at all, i couldnít do what i do without it, but to believe that just because an individual has been trained makes them immune to stupidity is wrong, if said individual is an idiot by nature then all you end up with is a trained idiot.....

Hopefully these two individuals have learnt a valuable lesson and become better sailors for it.......

John

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Old 09-06-2012, 18:29   #18
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

Training Hmmmph. I remember a liicensed captain in a marina I stayed in that had hit every boat in his side of the marina. This was with a twin screw. He and his girlfriend died of exposure after jumping overboard when he had an engine fire. The boat was brought in by the coastguard, turns out the onboard extinguisher had put out the fire.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:02   #19
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

My point exactly. I believe the Master aboard that Italian cruise ship probably had some training as well. Was there ever a final body count there?
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:57   #20
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Training and common sense are not interchangeable. As it was pointed out, one of the crew was an aircraft navigator, so indeed did have training. As pointed out earlier, why move in the dark if you don't need to, and you certainly don't need to be a rocket scientist to read a tide book and know when would be the best time to move the vessel.

I think the notion that beginners can read a tide book and then determine when would be the best time to move a boat in those circumstances is quite naive. It was foolish of them to try that, but I know a guy with decades of experience who just did a lot of damage to the top of a mast because he tried to go through a bridge too soon. It's easy to make mistakes managing a sailboat. I don't think anyone here can say they never did something that someone else would call "stupid." And there could be all sorts of reasons for moving the boat at night, stating with maybe they both had jobs and the boat had to be moved right away.

I could see someone diligently seeking out lessons, but still a beginner, and still make mistakes.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:58   #21
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
My point is i have come across some very highly trained pillock's in my time, these are the ones that usually donít miss an opportunity to flash there professionally obtained credentials to all that will listen, are so convinced in their ability that they take risks that any prudent sailor would baulk at, these are the truly dangerous individuals out there. At least if they are untrained and inexperienced they have an excuse no matter how idiotic that sounds......what excuses do the professionally trained experts who do these sorts of things on a regular basis have ? ....

I am not against training at all, i couldnít do what i do without it, but to believe that just because an individual has been trained makes them immune to stupidity is wrong, if said individual is an idiot by nature then all you end up with is a trained idiot.....

Hopefully these two individuals have learnt a valuable lesson and become better sailors for it.......

John


It's very easy to not know what you don't know and end up in trouble.
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:19   #22
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

Absolutely right, I don't know what circumstances dictated moving the vessel at that time. My dispute is with those who believe professional training is the holy grail of vessel operating. I work and live with many commercial fishers whom have had no professional training, yet I would and have trusted my life with them. I have also worked and lived with highly trained, highly licensed personnel; that didn't have the sense to pour rain water out of a boot, with the instructions on the heel. I know of one marine pilot that manages tankers in and out of some of the most dangerous waters in the world, that ran his own 42' private boat on the rocks with a boat load of children, fortunately no one was hurt.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:23   #23
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Absolutely right, I don't know what circumstances dictated moving the vessel at that time. My dispute is with those who believe professional training is the holy grail of vessel operating. I work and live with many commercial fishers whom have had no professional training, yet I would and have trusted my life with them. I have also worked and lived with highly trained, highly licensed personnel; that didn't have the sense to pour rain water out of a boot, with the instructions on the heel. I know of one marine pilot that manages tankers in and out of some of the most dangerous waters in the world, that ran his own 42' private boat on the rocks with a boat load of children, fortunately no one was hurt.

I never heard anyone say professional training is the "holy grail." However, it's the sensible path for most beginners, especially if, as was the case in the case of this boat, the nearby waters can be tricky.

Lessons will not cover every possible contingency. Yesterday I failed to put my engine into neutral when it was VERY clear we didn't want to be moving fast. I was dealing with something else very new to me (the emergency tiller, which had slipped out of the rudder post). We know enough about brain function to know that when you're doing something very new to you, that task tends to "flood the brain" and block other actions you might want or need to take.

I *think* I would have enough skills to have kept that boat off the rocks, but maybe not. I can only guess. We don't know if something else was going wrong at the same time. We know the boat was new to them. Maybe they had a mechanical malfunction and what skills they had were overwhelmed by the situation.

I think to make a blanket statement that such things should never happen is just wrong. Good sailors make mistakes all the time. Beginners can't always even predict what the difficulties might be, like the friend who was at the wheel, for the first time, of a 42 ft boat. She didn't realize she was fighting a strong current, and losing, because she didn't know to compensate for it. She sailed the boat into very shallow water. Someone else (me, actually) noticed just in time and more experienced people got the boat out of there. She didn't know what she didn't know.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:19   #24
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

It has been postulated on this forum many times that the only way to go is with professional training and any vessel over 32' is too big to sail. It is my perspective that neither is true and that it varies from person to person.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:58   #25
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Except for mountains.
Generally referred to in the industry as Cumulous Lithious - aka Cumulous Rockous - Yep - try to avoid those
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Old 10-06-2012, 13:06   #26
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

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Absolutely right, I don't know what circumstances dictated moving the vessel at that time.
I am not totally familiar with the area - but I suspect it was to do with the tides and positioning the boat better for the "hop" accross the channel to home.

Either the other marina was not gated (therefore allowing an earlier depart time / at a more favourable time current wise - whether the benefit was initially or later in the voyage) or simply that it would save a bit of time that would be important (esp. on a small ./ slow boat) to catch the same tidal "windows". Throw in that they probably also wanted to get the boat home ASAP, whether for work or weather reasons - or both.

The voyage probably fell into the category of "it's not far, how hard can it be?" .
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Old 10-06-2012, 15:24   #27
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I think the rock they hit was Goubeau which drys 8.5m, has a great yellow stick on it. If not familiar why even try for the inside passage. Question is did they even have a chart! Rumour I heard was no navigation experience at all.
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:14   #28
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

I agree with Rakuflames. Once again collectively "we" here on CF are branding these unfortunate men as "stupid idiots" without knowing the details of the incident as "we" seem to do with most groundings, abandonments, sinkings, etc. Of course the Mail Online writers weren't too kind either.

As some of the gentler posters in this thread have mentioned, even highly trained experienced people make mistakes that sometimes get them into trouble. I know that personally 20 years of naval training and 40 years of sailing experience have not made me immune from mistakes. Just a few weeks ago, I once again raised the mainsail before removing the preventer that keeps the boom from swinging with the sail down.

Perhaps we experts could give people involved in an untoward incident the benefit of the doubt until we find out what really happened or we read about them in "Sailors Confessional." For example, one of the news articles mentioned that timing of this voyage could be explained by the tidal conditions (presumably high slack water).
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:19   #29
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Re: Don't get caught on a reef at high tide.

Too true. It is a given that we all will make mistakes at one time or another, it is what you do after you make a mistakes, that tells the true story. Second guessing some incident, where one wasn't directly involved, is an exercise in futility, we cannot know all the factors at play.
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