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Old 12-01-2012, 17:36   #76
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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Originally Posted by Waterwayguy View Post
Which would you consider an "expert"? Someone that landed some cash, bought a big boat and cruised up and down the ICW a handful of times?
Perhaps it might do some good to actually read the piece in The Marine Guide. I've never claimed any personal expertise other than the 25 years of boating and 9 years of cruising that I've done.

The real expertise is the community. It's why Wikipedia is an excellent resource. It's why crowd-sourced charts will be the future of nautical charts. And it's why single-point-of-view guidebooks are quickly becoming the way we "used to" go cruising. If Claiborne's books held tremendous value, they'd be eBooks in Amazon, the Apple book store, and Barnes & Noble's electronic library. Instead, they're gone. Not worth Claiborne's time to keep up to date, re-print, or even turn into pdf files. It's not me setting their value as worthless - it's Claiborne.

And if I see a warning from another boater about an uncharted rock, I'll probably be a little more aware in the area. That's not a bad thing. It's sort of how "local knowledge" is created, the standard for all navigation sources.
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Old 12-01-2012, 17:47   #77
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

Yep. They are all corrupt: cruising guide issuers, boat manufacturers, authorities, forums moderators, cats, WIVES ...

;-)))

We have only just started this new, last, 2012, year and already so many conspiracies discovered. WHOA!

I feel these binoculars are watching me. Creeps.

b.
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Old 12-01-2012, 17:50   #78
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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What response did you get from NOAA when you reported it to them? I know it took the Canadian Hydrographic Service some time to believe that there was an uncharted rock in the vicinity of Ruxton Passage. It is on newer charts.
I will readily acknowledge that I have no idea how to report something like this to the right place in an agency like NOAA. If anyone can provide some guidance, I'd be more than happy to do so.
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Old 12-01-2012, 18:46   #79
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

Of course there ae electronic cruising guides. The latest version of Rose Point has one built right in, with pictures and everything, covering all areas charted by NOAA. There may be better print guides for specific areas, but I've found the Rose point guides to be quite useful.
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Old 12-01-2012, 19:12   #80
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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crowd-sourced charts will be the future of nautical charts.
Anyone who believes that believes in the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny and probably the Great Pumpkin too. Charts are meant to be precise documents, tools of our trade if you will...you don't get precision from a random sampling of opinions from a random sampling of boaters. You get it from properly calibrated instruments used by trained professionals.
I go online for Salty Southeast Cruisers Net and Waterway Guides forum for the information contained from cruisers there - but I don't treat what I read there as gospel because too often these people are just plain wrong, because - they aren't boating pros.
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Old 12-01-2012, 19:24   #81
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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Charts are meant to be precise documents, tools of our trade if you will...you don't get precision from a random sampling of opinions from a random sampling of boaters.
A ton of evidence proves statistically that you're incorrect. In fact, throw a few hundred boats over an area, collect their data and normalize it and it'll be better than any nautical chart that has ever been produced. And the data could be days or weeks old instead of decades.

So instead, you'd rather use the existing "precise documents" created at huge taxpayer expense...that we KNOW have blatant, obvious errors that even the most novice boater would see as incorrect?
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Old 12-01-2012, 19:29   #82
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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A ton of evidence proves statistically that you're incorrect. In fact, throw a few hundred boats over an area, collect their data and normalize it and it'll be better than any nautical chart that has ever been produced. And the data could be days or weeks old instead of decades.

So instead, you'd rather use the existing "precise documents" created at huge taxpayer expense...that we KNOW have blatant, obvious errors that even the most novice boater would see as incorrect?
God you really are pushing the encyclopedia's here!

Steady on man, it is an idea, a cool idea but not failsafe or even a replacement for the traditional navigation tools.
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Old 12-01-2012, 19:47   #83
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

What 'ton of evidence'? By and large, I've found the NOAA and other charts I've used in the US, or explorer in the Bahamas, or Puerto Rico, T&C and other parts of the Caribbean, to be more than adequate.
Anyone who expects an overly high level of precision from nautical charts is just asking for trouble. The sea bottom changes, but generally not to the extent that we need advice from some 'boater' who wants to see his posting online:
"See Martha, they posted my suggestions. I must be a big important wheel in the marine business now'.
As for 'normalizing' the data, first you have to have enough of it - by your own admission, that doesn't happen all the time and everywhere - and my recollection of random distribution and other similar black arts reminds me that if there is a large enough error in the data, it will skew the final result.
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Old 12-01-2012, 21:03   #84
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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A ton of evidence proves statistically that you're incorrect. In fact, throw a few hundred boats over an area, collect their data and normalize it and it'll be better than any nautical chart that has ever been produced. And the data could be days or weeks old instead of decades.

So instead, you'd rather use the existing "precise documents" created at huge taxpayer expense...that we KNOW have blatant, obvious errors that even the most novice boater would see as incorrect?
I have to respectfully disagree here. The survey behind the nautical chart starts with the philosophy of finding and documenting hazards to navigation. The crowd charts may give better data for the channels and navigable waters, but the 'crowd' is not seeking out and sounding rocks and reefs--they are avoiding them.
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Old 12-01-2012, 21:15   #85
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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The survey behind the nautical chart starts with the philosophy of finding and documenting hazards to navigation. The crowd charts may give better data for the channels and navigable waters, but the 'crowd' is not seeking out and sounding rocks and reefs--they are avoiding them.
But in many cases, especially in recreational boating areas, there just aren't surveys being done. The ones that are used for the charts are decades if not a hundred years old. The economic reality of maintaining good information for the cruising channels is tied to getting crowd-sourced data. The surrounding anchorage areas will be similarly documented by all of us.

What makes you think NOAA has the budget to survey anything but common channels themselves now anyway?
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Old 12-01-2012, 21:25   #86
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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I have to respectfully disagree here. The survey behind the nautical chart starts with the philosophy of finding and documenting hazards to navigation. The crowd charts may give better data for the channels and navigable waters, but the 'crowd' is not seeking out and sounding rocks and reefs--they are avoiding them.
Activecaptain is right on target. Do you think GPS is accurate? GPS samplings contain random errors that are hundreds of yards off - yet the qty of samplings generate a statistically precise mean that can be relied on (within fractions of a inch in survey-grade GPS equipment).

The crowd-source power of this forum is another example. There are some really stupid posts, and some really brilliant ones, and most are just common sense and wisdom gained through experiences. Yet by reading all the data points, we can form opinions and gain insights, and use judgment about which to weigh heavily or discard... And context plays a role in that judgment, as does the reputation of frequent posters who convey a consistent online persona you may respect (or not).
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Old 12-01-2012, 21:38   #87
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

Free Online Cruising Guide for Sailors sharing Local knowledge, Experiences, Photographs and Advice on Ports, Anchorages, Marinas, Docks, Yachts, Restaurants, Supermarkets, Fuel, Gas, Services, Excursions, Beaches, Boats, Bars, Hikes, Bus routes, Lau

Another site looking towards gathering information and presenting a web based information base.

Then theres Soggy Paws

DIfferent approach but gives up to date information from sailors on the ground.

Lots of ways to disseminate and receive information. Each to their own or owns LOL
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Old 12-01-2012, 21:40   #88
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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The crowd-source power of this forum is another example. There are some really stupid posts, and some really brilliant ones, and most are just common sense and wisdom gained through experiences. Yet by reading all the data points, we can form opinions and gain insights, and use judgment about which to weigh heavily or discard...
That's exactly the point. I couldn't have said it nearly as well.

The conversational aspects of a forum don't allow much culling either. You have to sort of read through from front to back. But other data can be sorted and arranged and examined in other ways.
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Old 13-01-2012, 10:08   #89
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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I will readily acknowledge that I have no idea how to report something like this to the right place in an agency like NOAA. If anyone can provide some guidance, I'd be more than happy to do so.
NOAA's Nautical Discrepancy Reporting System
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Old 13-01-2012, 10:22   #90
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Re: Do You Still Use Cruising Guides ?

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And it's why single-point-of-view guidebooks are quickly becoming the way we "used to" go cruising. If Claiborne's books held tremendous value, they'd be eBooks in Amazon, the Apple book store, and Barnes & Noble's electronic library. Instead, they're gone. Not worth Claiborne's time to keep up to date, re-print, or even turn into pdf files. It's not me setting their value as worthless - it's Claiborne.
Sorry Jeff, but I'm going to keep pushing back when you disparage your competitors.

There's a big difference between something being 'worthless' commercially, and worthless for cruising purposes.

In other words, you may be right that its hard to make money selling cruising guides. That doesn't mean they are worthless to those who use them. Far from it, in fact. I think you overrate the value of timeliness.

Can I quote from this Forum's Sponsoring Vendor guidelines:

"Sponsoring Vendors may offer verifiable, objective facts that point out differences between their product and a competing product only if it serves to clarify an issue, but they may not post in a disparaging, demeaning or derogatory way about a competitor or a competitor's product, service or company."

You have no idea what's happening in other people's lives or why they do or don't do something. Please show a little respect for those who have paved the way for your success.
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