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View Poll Results: do you have a chartplotter and/or what type of nav system do you use
No chartplotteer - paper charts and GPS 12 10.53%
No chartplotter - paper charts and compass only 1 0.88%
yes chartplotter - no paper charts 2 1.75%
yes chartplotter - paper charts and GPS backup 26 22.81%
yes chartplotter - paper charts and compass backup 14 12.28%
yes chartplotter - no paper and an independant back up chartplotter 3 2.63%
yes chartplotter - paper and an independant back up chartplotter 5 4.39%
we got everything, chartplotter, BU, GPS, paper 51 44.74%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-05-2012, 21:31   #31
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

Chart plotter on my PC, chart plotter backup on my laptop, chart plotter on my IPad. Paper charts and optical direction finder which I have not touched for the past 10 years.
Lets wake up world and accept the fact that technology is here to stay and serve us while at it.
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Old 11-05-2012, 22:13   #32
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Originally Posted by levm View Post
Chart plotter on my PC, chart plotter backup on my laptop, chart plotter on my IPad. Paper charts and optical direction finder which I have not touched for the past 10 years.
Lets wake up world and accept the fact that technology is here to stay and serve us while at it.
Just like kick starters on motor bikes.
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Old 21-05-2012, 06:29   #33
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Regardless of all the "talk" against using the evil technology on various threads no one has selected paper charts and compass yet. Everyone who voted has an electronic device. Is this a case of "do as I preach not as I do"?
Again...

Its not that the electronics themselves are in any way "evil"

Its the human factors aspect of the cognitive impact of automating the process of deriving a position...

Leave it all up to the box -or multiple boxes for that matter- without actively engaging the grey matter between your ears throughout, and you are asking for trouble.
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:15   #34
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

Most of the comments on related threads makes it sound that those who have the electronic charts don't have any grey matter! When basically it is the grey matter that is probably the "evil" in the whole thing.
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:23   #35
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Originally Posted by levm View Post
Chart plotter on my PC, chart plotter backup on my laptop, chart plotter on my IPad. Paper charts and optical direction finder which I have not touched for the past 10 years.
Lets wake up world and accept the fact that technology is here to stay and serve us while at it.

That list didn't begin to list all the options: I have a chart plotter and a backup; paper chart and backup; computer with charts on it; etc.
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:24   #36
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Again...

Its not that the electronics themselves are in any way "evil"

Its the human factors aspect of the cognitive impact of automating the process of deriving a position...

Leave it all up to the box -or multiple boxes for that matter- without actively engaging the grey matter between your ears throughout, and you are asking for trouble.

Stupid people will do stupid things no matter what they have. And you can't fix stupid.
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:27   #37
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Most of the comments on related threads makes it sound that those who have the electronic charts don't have any grey matter! When basically it is the grey matter that is probably the "evil" in the whole thing.

That's right. But I have little patience with technology snobs. Since they don't have the technology, they aren't fully familiar with it and don't really know what it's strengths and weaknesses are. The fact is that the chart plotter and charts enhance each other. I had a guy on my boat once who refused to learn how the chart plotter worked. He will never sail with me again. He was there to prove that he was smarter than everyone else, and it was very important to him. IMO that could make him dangerous in an emergency. In fact we got caught in a storm on the way home and I just ignored him. He might have had a good idea in there somewhere, but mister "chart plotters are bad" had a lot to learn.
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:51   #38
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

The main issue is there are many boaters that ONLY know how to navigate on a chartplotter.

I still say any electronics IS the backup to paper charts. That said, I DO use my chartplotter on my boat.. but the paper chart is right next to me at every waking moment.

I strongly recommend all captains KNOW how to navigate using paper charts, whether or not it is used on a reguar basis.

The captain needs to know the strengths and limitations of all his navigation equipment, whether electronic or not.
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Old 21-05-2012, 12:52   #39
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Most of the comments on related threads makes it sound that those who have the electronic charts don't have any grey matter! When basically it is the grey matter that is probably the "evil" in the whole thing.
Again...

Thats your perception Don...At least as far as I can tell from the reaction you've had to my missives on the subject.

But you can go back and read that not once have I denigrated the electronics (but have have pointed out at least one case of irresponsible marketing of them), or said that people were stupid. Folks who have taken the greatest issue with what I had to say are the ones who have been the quickest to label others stupid...

Indeed, the question begs why otherwise highly competent folks ...like the crews of the San Francisco, Pride of Canterbury, Port Royal, and Aegean, to name just a few recent cases...could have succumbed to such puzzlingly odd fates when they had at their disposal the latest electronic navigation systems.

Anyone who had met any of those hapless souls before hand would have considered them far, far from "stupid."

Again...

Why?
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Old 21-05-2012, 13:05   #40
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Stupid people will do stupid things no matter what they have. And you can't fix stupid.
Chalking it up to that strawman answer pretty much guarantees that sometime in the not too distant future, there will be another thread pondering why "those stupid" folks ran up on the rocks.

When prior to the mishap they had been regarded as top notch competent sailors...

Bottom line is there is a significant human factors risk to bringing electronic navigation systems aboard and not bringing aboard the requisite emphasis on "integrating" them back to the basics....

And oh yeah...

Before you dismiss me as a "technology snob", I have a chartplotter aboard, and am contemplating buying a new one.
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Old 21-05-2012, 13:21   #41
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

Quote:
Its the human factors aspect of the cognitive impact of automating the process of deriving a position...
In any navigation system there is a process of verification. The idea is you can screw up mentally at any time but you usually have several chances to spot the error and make a correction if you are trained to look for position verification. No technology or lack of it gets past "just plain stupid". Your method of navigation really won't change anything related to the mental problems of navigating a boat. If you observe continuously and double check regularly you will spot your own short comings. You'll also spot that the GPS just died too. Diligence has nothing to do with technology. Technology reduces the tediousness of diligence.

If technology can fail so can a person.
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Old 21-05-2012, 13:35   #42
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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In any navigation system there is a process of verification. The idea is you can screw up mentally at any time but you usually have several chances to spot the error and make a correction if you are trained to look for position verification. No technology or lack of it gets past "just plain stupid". Technology reduces the tediousness of diligence.
Yes it does...or can...but it takes deliberate training and preparation to ensure thats the case.

Go back and read the MAIB report on the Pride of Canterbury PBLAIS...You will see that while automation has its benefits, there are subtle negative effects on cognition that must be recognized and mitigated.

Went through it all exhaustively already. So like I said, chalk what happened to the crew of the Aegean up to simple stupidity, and prepare to do the same when the next headline hits about a similar -"How Could this Happen?!?!?!?" navigation mystery hits....

Its a legitimate problem that has now made it into the pleasure boat world...
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Old 21-05-2012, 20:42   #43
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

If you have paper unless you can tell visually where you are you still need some form of tool to tell you your lat and long to plot unless you just dead recon. Anyway in the north atlantic Europe is over where the sun rises, North America is where the sun sets. The path of the sun is south of your position, when the sun is overhead you have gone far enough.
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Old 21-05-2012, 20:58   #44
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Re: Do you have a chartplotter?

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Originally Posted by sidmon View Post
Chalking it up to that strawman answer pretty much guarantees that sometime in the not too distant future, there will be another thread pondering why "those stupid" folks ran up on the rocks.

When prior to the mishap they had been regarded as top notch competent sailors...

Bottom line is there is a significant human factors risk to bringing electronic navigation systems aboard and not bringing aboard the requisite emphasis on "integrating" them back to the basics....

And oh yeah...

Before you dismiss me as a "technology snob", I have a chartplotter aboard, and am contemplating buying a new one.

I think you took that personally when it was not intended that way. They both have their place. Memorial Day weekend I will be sailing in waters I have never sailed in before. I wouldn't dream of doing it without studying a BIG paper chart with lots of detail. I'll have the smaller version right by ma and I will *also* have the chart plotter on. On the chart plotter you can zoom in and get buried details. You can't do that on a paper chart.

What I'm arguing against is the assumption that there are a significant number of boaters out there who cannot navigate without a chart plotter. I know there's one, because I heard him calling the Coast Guard once. He wanted them to bring a boat out and guide him to the southern mouth of the Sunshine Skyway Channel because his chart plotter had stopped working and he couldn't find it without his chart plotter. For those of you not familiar with the area, it is not at all hard to find. There's this big bridge right by it ...

But I don't assume that this guy is typical. I don't know him personally, but I personally don't know any boaters like him. If I hadn't heard the radio call myself I would have thought it to be a made up story.

The survey left out some things I personally know to be on other people's boats -- for instance, a sextant. Do binoculars count? They're a big aid when using coastal navigation.

I have to say the only sailor I knew who actively chose to ignore electronics also ignored paper charts and ran aground -- a lot. He imagined channels where there were none. In his mind he defined any place he *didn't* run aground as a "channel." English wasn't his first language so maybe he didn't have a clear understanding of the meaning of the word, I don't know.

I do not agree that there is a "human risk factor" to bringing electronics aboard. In fact I think that's pretty silly, sorry. Use all the tools you have.
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Old 21-05-2012, 21:18   #45
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Re: Do You Have a Chartplotter?

I love my Garmin touch screen as much as the next guy but that said, with the general drift of this thread a lot of us will be in deep doo doo if we get an EMP attack.
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