Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

[Kettlewell]

I think I can hear of very few navigation related blunders today. It seems most of us press the button on the AP and we do get to the other side at least as often as the rarefied navigator breed does.

Here's another one where the ship had all the mod cons and a full professional crew.

It

By the way, just for kicks Google "death by GPS."

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Here's another one where the ship had all the mod cons and a full professional crew.

You had to go back to 1995 for that.

It's nearly 20 years! 20 years!!!

[Kettlewell]

You had to go back to 1995 for that.

It's nearly 20 years! 20 years!!!

What difference does that make? Still a navigation blunder using electronics. I don't maintain an encyclopedic list of every GPS-aided blunder--the ones cited were just two that I happened to remember. Like I wrote previously, if you don't know what you're doing, electronics or not, it will catch up to you sooner or later.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

What difference does that make? Still a navigation blunder using electronics. I don't maintain an encyclopedic list of every GPS-aided blunder--the ones cited were just two that I happened to remember. Like I wrote previously, if you don't know what you're doing, electronics or not, it will catch up to you sooner or later.

That's BS. Anyone that uses paper to navigate should be locked up away from the water. Fine to use paper to have a look at the world if they want, but not navigate whilst at sea.
You had to go back 20 years because nav accidents don't happen often anymore.
In the paper chart times people were dying all over the place.
The thing that irritates me most is that those that claim paper to be safe are the ones being dangerous in their advice.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

That's BS. Anyone that uses paper to navigate should be locked up away from the water. Fine to use paper to have a look at the world if they want, but not navigate whilst at sea.
You had to go back 20 years because nav accidents don't happen often anymore.
In the paper chart times people were dying all over the place.
The thing that irritates me most is that those that claim paper to be safe are the ones being dangerous in their advice.

Dangerous advise. Clearly not advise from a professional sailor.

I recall a recent (about 2 yrs ago) event where two well known Sydney sailors lives were lost on an overnight race out of Sydney.

Thats not to deride your personal abilities nor to say current day eletronics aren't fantastic aids to navigation.

Cheers

[minaret]

Originally Posted by downunder

Dangerous advise. Clearly not advise from a professional sailor.

I recall a recent (about 2 yrs ago) event where two well known Sydney sailors lives were lost on an overnight race out of Sydney.

Thats not to deride your personal abilities nor to say current day eletronics aren't fantastic aids to navigation.

Cheers

The navigation school I attended strongly emphasized the need to keep a DR position on a paper chart at all times regardless of other methods of navigation. It is basic safety and navigation 101, and it promotes awareness and hones basic skills aside from its utility as a backup. Definitely terrible advice.

The recent event, much discussed here on CF, wherein a boat ran aground on Coronado Island, was determined to have been a result of too much reliance on autopilot and chart plotter combined with poor watch keeping. Four dead, just recently. One might argue that the Low Speed Chase incident may have had elements of this as well.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by minaret

The navigation school I attended strongly emphasized the need to keep a DR position on a paper chart at all times regardless of other methods of navigation. It is basic safety and navigation 101, and it promotes awareness and hones basic skills aside from its utility as a backup. Definitely terrible advice.

The recent event, much discussed here on CF, wherein a boat ran aground on Coronado Island, was determined to have been a result of too much reliance on autopilot and chart plotter combined with poor watch keeping. Four dead, just recently. One might argue that the Low Speed Chase incident may have had elements of this as well.

Yes Minaret

Most of the modern boaters never get to a boating/navigation school as such. Buy that plotter & she will be sweet.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ate-92064.html

Yep. Just one example.

b.

[barnakiel]

Honda point is pre-GPS. Possibly avoidable today.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by minaret

Couldn't agree more.

Not with the 'idiot' part though?

Opinions and attitudes, great we have the Internet to swap, hear others and adjust our views and actions accordingly!

Huh?

Love, flowers, beer&bear,
b.

[goboatingnow]

I think given MarkJs accomplishments calling him names is ridiculous, and knowing his posts he may be doing a bit of "winding up".

What I beleive he means is that you would be an idiot today to set sail without the aid of modern electronics and chart plotters. Thats doesn't mean you dont have paper charts as a backup ( this has been discussed to death in another thread).

The fact is what he is referring to is the accepted normal current practice,No boats I personally know, do not have some form of electronic position fixing and electronic charts, Most have more information then the cockpit of a 747. Paper is relegated to the role of backup and its good at that

While I do maintain a worked up paper chart, I would suggest that the minimum is to maintain a log of position, this allows a chart to be worked up if position fixing is lost.

I really dont understand the furore over GPS or chartplotter failure. The sun still rises where it always did and sets " over the other way", and rough lattitude can be determined by using the palm of your hand. The worlds land masses are conveniently located north south and hence you tend to eventually bump into something, by running down your latitude.

Then we have modern communications , so unless everything is fried on board ( which is a very very rare occurrence) , you can gets fixes from shipping, you can contact SARs, other radio stations etc when you get closer to land. The modern navigator has far more choices available to him then in the past. The march of technology will also add more choices and provide more backup. This argument in twenty years time , would look much like if I argued that everyone should be thought Lunars, to provide from time-less longitude determination. The world simply will never just "black out".

Dave

[sailorboy1]

Like most threads, what appears to be the majority position based on posts doesn't match what the majority of people really think. See polls below.

For this thread if number of accidents being caused by people using GPS systems matched the real percentage of people using GPS the water would look like a crash site.

If you were able to collect data for how many problems were prevented by GPS systems it would make the number of accidents look like statistical noise!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ter-81597.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ary-91929.html

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

Like most threads, what appears to be the majority position based on posts doesn't match what the majority of people really think. See polls below.

For this thread if number of accidents being caused by people using GPS systems matched the real percentage of people using GPS the water would look like a crash site.

If you were able to collect data for how many problems were prevented by GPS systems it would make the number of accidents look like statistical noise!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ter-81597.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ary-91929.html

CF discussions are never bothered by relevant facts
Dave

[Kettlewell]

You had to go back 20 years because nav accidents don't happen often anymore.
In the paper chart times people were dying all over the place.

Quoting yourself, "that's BS." Is the Aegean story not a nav accident? All I am saying is that you still have to navigate, using electronics or not, and paper charts and traditional plotting techniques are important, even if you are using all the electronics in the world, for those who want to truly be safe. Cheers.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Quoting yourself, "that's BS." Is the Aegean story not a nav accident? All I am saying is that you still have to navigate, using electronics or not, and paper charts and traditional plotting techniques are important, even if you are using all the electronics in the world, for those who want to truly be safe. Cheers.

I think one must be very careful in making leaps of assumption. ie that modern navigational failures are a result of modern navigation methods.. Most are a result of time honoured mistakes, such as inattention, or bad decision making.

Paper charts remain "important" but only up to a certain point, Plotting on charts does not remove "mistakes" and many boats have been lost using "traditional " methods ( in fact probably many more then with modern methods).

I can be unsafe with paper charts, I can be unsafe with all the toys AND paper plotting. Mistakes are mistakes. If for example I fail to use the Mark I eyeball, no paper chart in the world will save me.

This debate is not about GPS/Chartplotters versus paper, its about poor navigators versus good ones. I'd prefer an experienced and knowledgeable navigator on board with only GPS and chart plotter, then a inexperience and foolish one with all the back gear in the world.

Dave