Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-12-2012, 12:17   #76
Registered User
 
HappySeagull's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: B.C.,Canada
Boat: 29'
Posts: 2,395
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Let's cut to the chase!
...Compulsory AIS screwed into our head and the Coastguard can steer us home with Skynet.
Class "B" is for "Borg". It is useless to resist.
__________________

__________________
HappySeagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 14:47   #77
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Monohulls too.
But not even my multitasking wife can look at the chart and out of the window at the same time
There are some vessels with excellent nav stations its just I dislike those (the majority)where you can't be at the table to check a position and on watch. Ok with large crews but with a couple.

Small crews simply have to multitask at times. If the assesment of risk was such that the helmsman not be distracted for a moment then all hands on deck.

Cheers
__________________

__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 14:48   #78
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup
My point has little to do with electronics vs paper, navigation vs pilotage, old vs new and nothing to do with better vs worse.

However I'm now a little clearer about what I'm trying to say, after reading how various people have interpreted my earlier post in various ways. So far nobody seems to understand my take on it*, so here's another try from me.

*(I don't mean nobody seems to agree; that's a different question from whether they understand ... but it seems to me it's not meaningfully possible to agree with what someone says - or disagree - without first understanding what they mean)

It strikes me that there are now two practicable approaches to position-finding for a cruising vessel.

Option A: do it yourself
Option B: get others to do it, and tell you the answer

Those "others" may be present on board, but more likely they're engineers, programmers, satellite technicians, mathematicians etc etc etc whom we will never meet. And they are "doing it" not in the sense that they work on the specific problem of our position, but in the sense that they've worked out how
What I'm about to say is not a value judgement. It's an observation.

When we use an option B piece of technology, we are not navigating.

It is.
I'm sorry " it is" is to completely misrepresent navigation

Lets look at the more obvious fallacies of your argument. Navigation of course is not solely the determination of position. Either with a inaccurate or accurate fix, it's us clear that navigation extends to far more issues then that and includes , but is not limited to, tidal streams and height calculations. The arrival times at tidal gates , the determination of a safe course consistent with the capabilities of the vessel and the crew, the examination of the weather and its forecast along the intended route. Pilotage at the destination and arrival , the ascertaining of safe harbours for a series of alternative scenarios etc

None of these tasks have much to do with position determination.

Secondly GPS is clearly a tool to determine position. In exactly the same way a sextant and associated tables and a calculation methodology a set of tools to also determine position. Both systems are the result of other experts. It matters not that some where astronomers and others were software engineers.

In practice position determination is not even a primary requirement of navigation. Merely running downs one latitude or even following the rising or setting sun is sufficient to basically determine course.

Whether one merely plugs in figures into a St. Hiliare intercept formula or one reads a GPS , the principle is the same you are using a methodology developed by others. Yes one is a product of a further 200 years of technology but that's irrelevant.


Being a navigator is a set of skills, tools and the experience and wisdom to apply them diligently and to evaluate and make use of the result.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 14:55   #79
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappySeagull View Post
DeepFrz, as to your meaning ,sure. Pilotage is a good word and let's see if I am making your argument?

I hope I get AndrewTroups point a little better ....I just don't agree.

"My point is this: a turnkey technology which offers sailors Option B is not just another tool to help find positions with. It's a tool which finds the position, and tells us the answer.

And I think because it's a conceptual shift, a disruptive step-change of major proportions, it's misleading to plot it on a smooth continuum with previous technological innovations like the chronometer."
So, your point is that: if the Chronometer breaks, the Navigator has the Sextant, the Chart, the shoreline sketches, some math and a sounding lead, and carries on...they were all in constant practise and therefore at hand.... insert the moon and sun and carry on. THIS, as opposed to your Class B GPS/Plotter which spits out a position on a chart. Unplug it you have nothing?
is THAT it?
But
Most here say if the gps dies, so what? they pull out a panoply of brass and paper or a spare GPS and carry on. (MarkJ forgets that when the Iphone comes unstapled, in 2050, there will be those that have an old Garmin that can still receive a shaky old constellation of 1990's satellites! )

The pertinent point might be: Are they using them NOW in concert with the gps/plotter?

If I understand the argument, I consider (DeepFrz's) Pilotage is about the only thing a body CAN do,nowadays, as AndrewTroups "Class A". Using the Class A eyeball and sketching shorelines+ maps,making notes, casting a lead, remembering steering-stars in their season, etc. (I don't know when I'll get to the Antipodes at this rate...)
BUT, as soon as I hand these out to them that wants to follow the same routes, they could be Class B for them. My homemade map gets wet and they are lost. They can't fix it. A bad piece of the puzzle never fits and could kill them....
What if the Chronometer runs fast? You need check it with Lunars or whatever. It's Class B unless you do , as far as my argument is concerned.
So, to me,Class B really includes Official Charts, Clocks, Tables, Sextants, Electronic Depth Sounders,Compasses,Magazine articles, etc. Unless I consider myself competent to repair or test them. Any one of these awry could kill me as quick as a fried plotter.
Excellent post.

Navigation is using all means at your disposal wether it be as you suggested using your radar/sounder to check plotter gps position.

Its surprising what those with blind faith in plotters and electronic charts that have never done any navigation training can get away with.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 15:20   #80
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,320
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Its surprising what those with blind faith in plotters and electronic charts that have never done any navigation training can get away with.
And you know this as a fact how???


And I doubt anyone (well maybe 99+% of people) has a blind faith in anything!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 15:34   #81
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Navigation is about navigating. It is finding the answers, not getting others to find them for you.

Same like sailing: getting others to do it is NOT sailing.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 15:59   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
And you know this as a fact how???


And I doubt anyone (well maybe 99+% of people) has a blind faith in anything!

Surmantics.

From observation of the newly rich (miners)and their powerboats (all sizes) operating on the GBR of Australia.

Less so with sailboats as they rarely (low percentage) venture into the Great barrier reef, mainly staying amongst the inshore islands. I would suggest a greater percentage of sailors planning offshore voyages would undertake training than powerboaters.

A large percentage of the powerboaters here buy a boat and a plotter and take off with no training. I suggest most of those have blind faith in the system and have certainly never undertaken seamanship training (No, I don't have the statistics but certainly virtually all training is being done by the commercial sector and that is not large). At present a one hour boat licence allows you to operate any private vessel in Queensland. Scary. That may change soon due to a number of incidents.

I can't speak for your area, perhaps it is different.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 16:01   #83
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,949
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Its surprising what those with blind faith in plotters and electronic charts that have never done any navigation training can get away with.
They don't get away with it. It catches up with them eventually.
__________________
Kettlewell Cruising
Kettlewell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-12-2012, 16:25   #84
Moderator
 
Hudson Force's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Lived aboard & cruised for 45 years,- now on a chair in my walk-in closet.
Boat: Morgan OI 413 1973 - Aythya
Posts: 7,894
Images: 1
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
So .... some cruisers have been building their own naval observatories so as to compile their own self-made nautical almanacs? Only a lazy dependent sailor would buy a pre-printed almanac. I heard of one free-loading sailor who listened to WWH to get the time of day. Sheesh, how lame is that!

Sorry in advance for the interruption .... carry on!
I'm with you. It's as if the real sailors would have to gain independant knowledge by building their own compass, sextant and chronometer. What pansy is going to buy these things from someone else who did all the work?
__________________
Take care and joy, Aythya crew
Hudson Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2012, 02:29   #85
Senior Cruiser
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg Queensland/Lake Bolac Victoria, Australia
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,202
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Andrew, could you please explain (for a dumb ass ships master) what it is that you would like to discuss, without all the flowering poetry please....

Seriously, if one of my officers conversed as you do ?.......he would be looking for another berth....

Please do it in less than two sentences please, and in English if possible.....cheers...
__________________
Adventure before Dementia.
John....
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2012, 03:01   #86
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,201
Images: 52
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Seemed pretty straightforward to me, it's right there in the title in less than one sentence. I thought it remarkable brevity.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2012, 03:07   #87
Senior Cruiser
 
IslandHopper's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bundaberg Queensland/Lake Bolac Victoria, Australia
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,202
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Seemed pretty straightforward to me, it's right there in the title in less than one sentence. I thought it remarkable brevity.
I would have thought so, but then reading the whole thread, and Andy's posts its not that clear....

Try not to be a smart arse all your life....
__________________
Adventure before Dementia.
John....
IslandHopper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2012, 04:13   #88
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel
Navigation is about navigating. It is finding the answers, not getting others to find them for you.

Same like sailing: getting others to do it is NOT sailing.

b.
Well that excludes work by Harrison, st. Hiliare, capt sumner. Nevil_Maskelyne. Etc. and you can solve spherical trigonometry in your head.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2012, 04:24   #89
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
My point has little to do with electronics vs paper, navigation vs pilotage, old vs new and nothing to do with better vs worse.

It strikes me that there are now two practicable approaches to position-finding for a cruising vessel.

Option A: do it yourself
Option B: get others to do it, and tell you the answer.
Thank you Andrew for clarifying your premise.
However, I believe there is a 3rd option that all master navigators practice.

Option C: Verify Option A with Option B. (or visa-versa)

In philosophical terms, something akin to a self-fulfilling prophecy....
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-12-2012, 04:50   #90
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
At present a one hour boat licence allows you to operate any private vessel in Queensland. Scary. That may change soon due to a number of incidents.

I can't speak for your area, perhaps it is different.
Around here you don't need any paperwork from da gubberment. and that seems to work ok .
__________________

David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.