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Old 23-12-2012, 20:10   #16
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

There are cruising guides, too. They give GPS coordinates and routes using those points.

So you end up with a thousand square miles of sea, and nine cruisers all trying to sail through the same point.
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Old 23-12-2012, 20:57   #17
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Ahh... my friend, I would class you as a true navigator as you are using some of the finest navigational tools available; the Mk 1 eyeball, the active brain and the sense to use them when and as required
That would be called Pilotage rather than Navigation would it not?
Quote from Wikipedia;
Quote:
Pilotage is the use of fixed visual references on the ground or sea by means of sight or radar to guide oneself to a destination, sometimes with the help of a map or nautical chart. People use pilotage for activities such as guiding vessels and aircraft, hiking and Scuba diving. When visual references are not available, it is necessary to use an alternative method of navigation such as dead reckoning (typically with a compass), radio navigation, and satellite navigation (such as GPS).
So it seems that other forms of navigation have different names already.
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Old 23-12-2012, 21:17   #18
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Captain Cook started it with Navigation By Clock.

The previous methods of navigation are now not valued like the Mona Lisa but seen for what they are: obsolete, irrelevant, unsafe. Thats the same as the paper nav you are misnaming as Nav by Sailor. Its irrelevant, Unsafe, obsolete, inacurate and should be shoved where the sun dont shine. And thats no where near the Mona Lisa.

You won't find any training provider worth its salt issuing qualifications, commercial or otherwise, that does not insist on a basic understanding of non electronic navigation before issuing said qualification(s), and the further the individual wants to go the more in depth the non electronic navigation goes.....

That's not to say electronic nav is not on the curriculum because it is, and for good reasons...

Two recent examples, while not boat related typify the dumbing down of society with its increasing reliance on electronics, and no, nobody had removed any road signage....plenty of boat related ones out there but these two recent incidents had me laughing my head off....

Apple Maps strands Australian drivers - Mobility - Technology - News - CRN Australia

Man caught driving wrong way blames GPS - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Sorry Mark but the only thing irrelevant on this topic is your belief....
....



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Old 23-12-2012, 21:52   #19
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
:

I am not talking specifically about "paper nav". My comments relate equally to other methods which do not rely on paper, but where the sailor does the navigating. A waka arrived at Easter Island recently, having departed on that leg from Manureva but originally NZ as I recall, using traditional navigation methods which do not involve paper.
I understand what you are saying Andrew and the ‘pun’ of it today, is that most new sailors are lost in appreciating the art of navigation and it is now discounted as being mechanical or electronic.

I remember first reading “We the Navigators”, before GPS, when celestial and DR is all I knew. I then realized how much I had to learn and how much our sailor’s community had lost.

We the Navigators: We, the Navigators, 2nd Ed. - David Lewis - Google Books
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Old 23-12-2012, 22:37   #20
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
1/2 way between Southampton and Cherbourg...?
LOL.

That's another one of my favorite places! But not depicted in that photo. Notice the anchor light is on? That was made in Havalet Bay, Guernsey, planning the crossing to Lymington, the evening before
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Old 23-12-2012, 22:54   #21
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
That would be called Pilotage rather than Navigation would it not?
Quote from Wikipedia;
So it seems that other forms of navigation have different names already.
+1, you got there before me. Pilotage and navigation are two wholly separate things. Pilotage is and will always be relevant to safely handling a boat, regardless of the instruments used. I took separate Celestial Nav, Electronic Nav, and Coastal Navigation (pilotage) courses at Starpath. The Pilotage course was by far the most informative and helpful to me, teaching all sorts of simple, timeless methods, techniques, and basic concepts of handling a boat at sea that many never bother to learn. They have a great online course, google it if you are not thoroughly familiar with traditional methods of pilotage, worth every penny.
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Old 24-12-2012, 00:35   #22
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I understand what you are saying Andrew and the ‘pun’ of it today, is that most new sailors are lost in appreciating the art of navigation and it is now discounted as being mechanical or electronic.

I remember first reading “We the Navigators”, before GPS, when celestial and DR is all I knew. I then realized how much I had to learn and how much our sailor’s community had lost.

We the Navigators: We, the Navigators, 2nd Ed. - David Lewis - Google Books
These were also my thoughts exactly after reading this book!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
That would be called Pilotage rather thanNavigation would it not?
Quote from Wikipedia;
So it seems that other forms of navigation have different names already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
+1, you got there before me. Pilotage and navigation are two wholly separate things. Pilotage is and will always be relevant to safely handling a boat, regardless of the instruments used. I took separate Celestial Nav, Electronic Nav, and Coastal Navigation (pilotage) courses at Starpath. The Pilotage course was by far the most informative and helpful to me, teaching all sorts of simple, timeless methods, techniques, and basic concepts of handling a boat at sea that many never bother to learn. They have a great online course, google it if you are not thoroughly familiar with traditional methods of pilotage, worth every penny.
While I agree that what Jamer Six is doing is called pilotage, I would argue that pilotage is simply a sub-set of the art/science of navigation but let's not derail Andrew T's thread - if you feel differently -so be it .

As I see his topic, it's a discussion on the merits / differences of navigation by machine cf navigation by the human mind - or something like that
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Old 24-12-2012, 00:49   #23
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
It's hard to imagine an internet forum where painting and photography were bundled under the heading "image-making"...


If we use this analogy, "painting" would be traditional navigation and "photography" would be electronic navigation. Andrew seems to be objecting to grouping these two together, ie "image making" or "navigation". I think what Frz and I were trying to say is that these delineations have already been around for some time under different names. The basic underlying skills of traditional navigation that will always still be relevant even with an integrated chartplotter are known as coastal navigation, or more properly pilotage. This is why I mention that the well known navigation school I took classes at clearly views these as separate skill sets and has separate classes for them; a course on Navigation, and a course on Pilotage.
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Old 24-12-2012, 01:37   #24
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Excellent book!


Along with ...

Celestial Navigation in the GPS Age - John Karl

Emergency Navigation - David Burch. This one is great for learning such tricks as how to find your position with a sextant and tables and no watch. Or with a watch and the tables and no sextant. And other fun stuff.

The Lo-Tech Navigator - Tony Crowley. Also great to do nav projects with your kids.
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Old 24-12-2012, 01:49   #25
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Rather than seeking to separate "electronic" from " traditional" (and I use this term broadly to mean everything from using a HB compass and dividers, to celestial navigation) I would encourage the opposite.

I think many cruising sailors would benefit from integrating these forms of navigation / pilotage.

Many "traditionalists" won't use the GPS and chartplotters in situations when it clearly the best tool for the job. Even worse they deem "electronic" navigation too easy and don't realise there are many skills and tricks to using using equipment.

On the other hand many tech savvy navigators will blindly trust their chart plotter presentation, without employing a few simple techniques, such as clearance bearings, that would keep them out of trouble, even with some charting errors.

IMHO both groups often neglect simple visual cues which would show there is a problem such as an uncharted shallow patch. The "traditionalists" neglect these cues because they so busy down below at the chart table working out their DR position, or plotting a three bearing fix. The electronic camp neglect the visual cues because they blindly trust their chart plotter.

Unfortunately, and sadly, the two camps seem to be diverging more.

Lets keep them shackled together and aim to cultivate a well rounded cruising sailor that can integrate the best from both worlds.
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Old 24-12-2012, 01:56   #26
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

On a number of threads talking about chartplotters vs paper charts or the nessesity of paper charts at all. I have often held to the fact that just using a chart plotter, prevents people from learning basic navigation skills, those necessary if their electronics and/or electrical system go down. Some peoples responses were such that they basically saw their gadgets and gizmos as infallible or at least enough so they didn't have to learn "analog navigation"...most of those people were never out of reach of their tech support.
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Old 24-12-2012, 02:46   #27
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
.....
Unfortunately, and sadly, the two camps seem to be diverging more.

Lets keep them shackled together and aim to cultivate a well rounded cruising sailor that can integrate the best from both worlds.
I sort of agree….Never thought of it as 2 camps, but instead:

Two sets of complementary skills, where a proper navigator is able to determine the fixed and variable errors of both, while still maintaining a good look-out.

However, ….. Perhaps the OP is suggesting a separate index in CF where traditional and ancient navigational techniques can be discussed without being scorned by those who have niether the time or inclination to appreciate them.

I think that would be interesting Area to participate in.
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Old 24-12-2012, 03:08   #28
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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However, ….. Perhaps the OP is suggesting a separate index in CF where traditional and ancient navigational techniques can be discussed without being scorned by those who have niether the time or inclination to appreciate them.

I think that would be interesting Area to participate in.
That's what i thought it was and one i would have enjoyed participating in, but the predictable attempt to derail the idea got in first......
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Old 24-12-2012, 03:26   #29
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

This is actually a fascinating discussion to me.

All of my sailing to date has been in either Puget Sound or Lake Washington.

I just finished (well, "just" relative to those of you who learned to navigate before the wheel was perfected-- it was a few months ago) a U.S. Sailing course called "Navigation and Piloting".

It was a course for those of us who don't own boats, but we belong to a club where we can charter cruisers and go roaring off under sail and get in trouble in all sorts of ways.

The course mainly concentrated on reading and plotting on charts.

As it happens, here in Puget Sound, we have a number of "interesting" features in a fairly small area.

We have Agate Pass, which has the Agate Pass Bridge and a howling current. We have a number of places where if you anchor at high tide, you can be left high and dry at low tide. We have the Ballard Locks, we have bays and canals that you shouldn't oughta take your boat into at low tide if it draws seven feet. We have ferries and a large amount of commercial traffic coming out of Seattle and Tacoma who like to use the commercial lanes and expect sailboats not to play chicken or run between the tug and the barge. It's good to know whether or not you're in the commercial lanes.

So the course, which was given in Seattle, concentrated on Stuff You Need To Know About Charts To Survive Puget Sound in the boat you just chartered.

It covered a lot of stuff like reading the chart, using the tide table for Right Now, and determining if Our Mast will fit under That Bridge Right Now.

Or stuff like deciding whether or not to take This Boat, which is 49' long, into That Canal, which is 80' wide, under sail when The Tide is creating A Current that is running against us.

So how would piloting differ from navigation?

From my station, it looks like they intermingle-- but I'm new.
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Old 24-12-2012, 03:41   #30
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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That's what i thought it was and one i would have enjoyed participating in, but the predictable attempt to derail the idea got in first......
I hope not derailed, unless we start talking about the various benefits of a ‘horizontal sextant angle.
But this below is the kind of stuff that fascinates me
Traditional Micronesian Navigation Collection
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