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Old 29-12-2012, 15:59   #151
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
Is that "professional" as in one getting paid or one knowledgeable enough to, I dunno, say circumnavigate the globe?

By sailor, do you mean one who sails or as a more general term like mariner?

Frank

I hope calling one of the few on CF who actually cruises full-time and isn't just an armchair expert or wanna-be an "idiot" doesn't drive knowledgeable folks like Mark away from here. We've seen some very knowledgeable people quit CF in the past for not respecting opinions, and without those actually "doing it" we'll be no better off than the local yacht club bar.
I gave up counting sea miles over 20 years ago, "armchair expert" most certainly not....

I am a Ships Master (Unlimited), i also built my first cruising sailboat in the early 80's. I have cruised both the Indian and Pacific Oceans and even dipped my toes in the Southern, i have also been the Master of ships in all of the Oceans and quite a few seas.....if i am not working on the water, i am cruising on it.....

As for the idiot remark i apologise, PC is not my strong point....

Back on Topic.....

Andrew you may be interested in this report from 06, a couple of fixes (GPS or otherwise) on the available paper chart would have prevented this incedent....

Investigation: 231 - Grounding of the offshore tug/supply Massive Tide







Another incident this time involving a sailboat happened about 8 months ago in Bundaberg. A husband and wife team where entering the port when they bounced of the northern breakwater, it was around 1030 at night and they where following the little red line on their chart plotter, which told them that the vessel was proceeding up the centre of the shipping channel.

What makes this laughable was they left the green lateral marks to starboard (as you would have to do to hit the breakwater), it never occurred to them that the situation they could see with their own eyes was wrong, they just blindly followed the chartplotter. Thankfully no one was hurt and the boat made it safely to berth at the marina, albeit with a couple a thousand dollars damage to her undersides.

The kicker for me was though, two days later the owner was at the marina bar proclaiming he was going to seek the costs of damage from the manufacturer of his chartplotter....good luck with that...
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Old 29-12-2012, 16:14   #152
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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It comes to mind that, when we consider the incidents of collisions, accidents and errors while navigating, some people suceed with any of the combinations of tools from simple ded reckoning to all the latest technology and others fail with the same array of options. Isn't the burden always on the captain and crew and not the devices?
Exactly, but the proportion of blame been put on devices is increasing by the day.....

It's up to me to safely navigate a vessel....not some device.....electronic or otherwise...
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Old 29-12-2012, 16:29   #153
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Dear Mr Troup. You posts have descended into bombast. As I said before navigation is simply not position fixing or it is plotting or a chart. errors are made in today's age and were made in the past. It is a fact however that less navigation errors occur today that in previous years despite the huge increase in vessels of all types on the ocean.

Your hypothesis that there is an option A ( doing it for yourself ) and option B having it done for you, has no foundation, people make mistakes and errors of judgement irrespective of the methods employed.Tired sailors the age over have worked up wrong positions, incorrectly identified visual features and made mistakes, the wrecks of ships and boats over the ages testify to that

Sonorous pronouncements add little to the debate.

And just to clarify I beleive I mentioned that position fixing is only a small part of the navigators repertoire.

So in summary just what is your point ?

Dave
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Old 29-12-2012, 16:45   #154
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

This whole thread is 'troll-ish'.

Navigation: "The process or activity of accurately ascertaining one's position and planning and following a route."

I can't quite get to comparing navigation to various art forms. Photography is no more a replacement for painting than sculpture. All are forms of art.

Art: "The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as a painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."

Taking "navigation" at face value, a passage from point A to point B completed successfully without incident is in fact "good navigation" regardless of the tools utilized.

Although, I do agree with MarkJ insomuch that those refusing to utilize modern tools to aid in the act of "navigation" are rather foolish.
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Old 29-12-2012, 16:50   #155
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Old 29-12-2012, 18:03   #156
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I agree GPS is a tool as is a chronometer or a sextant. No difference at all really.

Dave
A good navigator uses all tools available. Too often people rely on one piece of electronics, without even using their brain
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Old 29-12-2012, 18:32   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee
A good navigator uses all tools available. Too often people rely on one piece of electronics, without even using their brain
There are many people that sail by rote or others that get out of their depth and made mistakes through fear or lack of experience. I've seen people in extremis just forget to think or suggest crazy ideas. None of this has to do with GPS or chart plotters. Anyone that has sailed anywhere will know there are always issues with GPS positions on electronic charts. Harbours have different layouts, marinas are not present , buoy age has changed etc. then you add in anomalies. , for example all the chart plotters show me entering San Sebastián de la Gomera going over the breakwater and when I'm in the marina , I'm I the lobby of the parador hotel !

In practice I never rely on exact position fixing anyway ( too much holdover from by bad sextant sight days !!) I'd never put the boat in a tight situation just because a chart plotter said it was all right.

Dave
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Old 29-12-2012, 18:41   #158
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Too often people rely on one piece of electronics, without even using their brain
But the reality is that 99%(?) of the time that is sufficient.
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Old 29-12-2012, 22:57   #159
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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I'm going to try one last time to make it clear that I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE USE OF GPS. I am not personally aware of any better method of position-finding than GPS. Under normal circumstances, I use other methods only in a supplementary role.
.
I thought your argument was quite interesting, if I have it right, that, say, gps+plotter+(say) autopilot is a quantum leap from the "arts" of navigation. I'd still ask for some more and better proof than I am seeing here. MarkJ and others might say, twas ever the way for sailors to go astray using instruments or not. So I'm looking for a JUMP in accidents.
hmmm. "Chart plotters" are iffy in that pantheon, of doofunnies. Many have poor charts. ie per GoBoating's post above,I wonder if that was an old chart improperly calibrated. though the gps was awithin 30 feet on a WGS84 world... But soon, charts wiil be absolutely accurate.
Perhaps your argument is ahead of its time.
Were I to make this argument, I couldn't resist drawing on the general hubub about the "Internet" and Processors ...and how life has changed!.... It is the same argument, if I have it right. ?
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Old 30-12-2012, 00:10   #160
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
Another incident this time involving a sailboat happened about 8 months ago in Bundaberg. A husband and wife team where entering the port when they bounced of the northern breakwater, it was around 1030 at night and they where following the little red line on their chart plotter, which told them that the vessel was proceeding up the centre of the shipping channel.[/FONT][/COLOR]

What makes this laughable was they left the green lateral marks to starboard (as you would have to do to hit the breakwater), it never occurred to them that the situation they could see with their own eyes was wrong, they just blindly followed the chartplotter. Thankfully no one was hurt and the boat made it safely to berth at the marina, albeit with a couple a thousand dollars damage to her undersides.
I'll tell a story on myself:

It was probably 12 years ago, and I was sailing the very first time with a chart plotter - the literally very first day on the water with such a device. After years of sailing with nothing but paper. We were trying to get through a treacherous narrow pass in SW Florida and I was thinking - thank God for this newfangled device - now I can just sail right through and not be distracted taking bearings and never being sure whether I'm right in the channel or not - I carefully drove the little ship icon right through the middle of the narrow channel, and was quite surpassed when we ran hard aground. The tide went out, we started to pitch over - the worst grounding I've ever experienced to date.

Seatow came out and pulled us off. As we waited nervously, I noticed buoys over on the other side - the channel had moved in a recent hurricane. If I had been using my eyes and brain instead of driving the little dot on the screen, I would have noticed the buoys. I felt like a total idiot. It was an absolutely fantastic lesson. So far never made a similar mistake again.
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Old 30-12-2012, 06:41   #161
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Seatow came out and pulled us off. As we waited nervously, I noticed buoys over on the other side - the channel had moved in a recent hurricane. If I had been using my eyes and brain instead of driving the little dot on the screen, I would have noticed the buoys. I felt like a total idiot. It was an absolutely fantastic lesson. So far never made a similar mistake again.
Now you are adding fuel to those who criticize the GPS use. This is the first real life case on all the chartplotter type discussions when I have read of someone following the GPS and forgetting to be using their eyes etc (in contrast to all the posters that insist that is the norm).

Of course you probably would have aground in the dark or poor visabilty in that same channel if you had followed the chart regardless.

I got real freaked out last year by a bouy that was waaay out of placed based on both my chartplotter and paper chart. I was thinking I was really lost as to position and had to start taking bearings on water towers etc. It is good to remember that a GPS tells you really where you are, much more accurate that the chart being used.
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Old 30-12-2012, 06:52   #162
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Don, it happens all the time. Down in the Abacos a guy came up on the VHF radio all in a panic saying that his GPS chartplotter with radar overlay weren't showing the same thing and what should he do? Well, since it was a perfect sunny day with unlimited visibility I suggested he stick his head out the hatch and look dead ahead and he could see Marsh Harbour, which he was headed towards. The Mark 1 eyeball was the device of choice for that situation.
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Old 30-12-2012, 06:53   #163
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pirate Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

LOLOLOL... you should try going up the Kanakalle to the Marmara... my little CP boat was travelling along the ridge 1.5miles inland...
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Old 30-12-2012, 06:56   #164
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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LOLOLOL... you should try going up the Kanakalle to the Marmara... my little CP boat was travelling along the ridge 1.5miles inland...
Were you following the road?
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Old 30-12-2012, 07:45   #165
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Now you are adding fuel to those who criticize the GPS use. This is the first real life case on all the chartplotter type discussions when I have read of someone following the GPS and forgetting to be using their eyes etc (in contrast to all the posters that insist that is the norm).

Of course you probably would have aground in the dark or poor visabilty in that same channel if you had followed the chart regardless.

I got real freaked out last year by a bouy that was waaay out of placed based on both my chartplotter and paper chart. I was thinking I was really lost as to position and had to start taking bearings on water towers etc. It is good to remember that a GPS tells you really where you are, much more accurate that the chart being used.
Oh, I bet something like this has happened to many, if not most sailors. Just few are willing to admit it.

GPS tells you where you are, but that's only part of the story. The rest of the story is what is there, where you are - a question of cartography. Charts, paper and electronic, are far from infallible, so you really do need to use your eyes and brain, in addition to the gadget. And your depth sounder
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