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Old 29-12-2012, 07:23   #136
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pirate Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

My delivery to OZ was the 1st time I've used a Chartplotter close on full time... though I did maintain a twice daily position...
Back in 2001 I lost GPS 600miles NW of the Azores... in those days I used to log my position on the chart every 4hrs. Using the last known position I managed to DR myself to 18 miles SSW of Falmouth (1100miles), a position that was confirmed by the Customs cutter that pulled up by me.
I was gobsmacked... the accuracy of my navigation was great using the RN 1972 Ships Boats charts which give currents, winds and other general info.... if these were still produced today I reckon they'd be well used... mine cover every ocean in the world and a few of the larger seas...
Regardless of what MarkJ says... I'll carry on using my 6 Ocean Charts for crossings... they tell me a lot more than my CP system ever could...
Also... if I FU I cant lay the blame on electronics... the blame will lie with me and my laziness..
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Old 29-12-2012, 07:34   #137
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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This debate is not about GPS/Chartplotters versus paper, its about poor navigators versus good ones.
Exactly! Accidents still happen, despite all the electronics being used, and your brain is still the most important navigational instrument onboard--use it.
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Old 29-12-2012, 07:50   #138
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
My delivery to OZ was the 1st time I've used a Chartplotter close on full time... though I did maintain a twice daily position...
Back in 2001 I lost GPS 600miles NW of the Azores... in those days I used to log my position on the chart every 4hrs. Using the last known position I managed to DR myself to 18 miles SSW of Falmouth (1100miles), a position that was confirmed by the Customs cutter that pulled up by me.
I was gobsmacked... the accuracy of my navigation was great using the RN 1972 Ships Boats charts which give currents, winds and other general info.... if these were still produced today I reckon they'd be well used... mine cover every ocean in the world and a few of the larger seas...
Regardless of what MarkJ says... I'll carry on using my 6 Ocean Charts for crossings... they tell me a lot more than my CP system ever could...
Also... if I FU I cant lay the blame on electronics... the blame will lie with me and my laziness..
Ships boat charts are still available as far as I know ( NP727) and very useful they are too.

Dave
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Old 29-12-2012, 08:29   #139
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Dangerous advise. Clearly not advise from a professional sailor.

Cheers
Is that "professional" as in one getting paid or one knowledgeable enough to, I dunno, say circumnavigate the globe?

By sailor, do you mean one who sails or as a more general term like mariner?

Frank

I hope calling one of the few on CF who actually cruises full-time and isn't just an armchair expert or wanna-be an "idiot" doesn't drive knowledgeable folks like Mark away from here. We've seen some very knowledgeable people quit CF in the past for not respecting opinions, and without those actually "doing it" we'll be no better off than the local yacht club bar.
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Old 29-12-2012, 08:53   #140
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

It's time for the name calling to stop.
Disagree with the post and argue your case as strongly as you like but resorting to personal attacks adds nothing to the thread.

A number of posts have been deleted.
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Old 29-12-2012, 08:55   #141
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pirate Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Exactly! Accidents still happen, despite all the electronics being used, and your brain is still the most important navigational instrument onboard--use it.
Yup.... just look up collisions of ships in the english channel...
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Old 29-12-2012, 10:41   #142
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I think given MarkJs accomplishments calling him names is ridiculous, and knowing his posts he may be doing a bit of "winding up".

What I beleive he means is that you would be an idiot today to set sail without the aid of modern electronics and chart plotters. Thats doesn't mean you dont have paper charts as a backup ( this has been discussed to death in another thread).

The fact is what he is referring to is the accepted normal current practice,No boats I personally know, do not have some form of electronic position fixing and electronic charts, Most have more information then the cockpit of a 747. Paper is relegated to the role of backup and its good at that

While I do maintain a worked up paper chart, I would suggest that the minimum is to maintain a log of position, this allows a chart to be worked up if position fixing is lost.

I really dont understand the furore over GPS or chartplotter failure. The sun still rises where it always did and sets " over the other way", and rough lattitude can be determined by using the palm of your hand. The worlds land masses are conveniently located north south and hence you tend to eventually bump into something, by running down your latitude.

Then we have modern communications , so unless everything is fried on board ( which is a very very rare occurrence) , you can gets fixes from shipping, you can contact SARs, other radio stations etc when you get closer to land. The modern navigator has far more choices available to him then in the past. The march of technology will also add more choices and provide more backup. This argument in twenty years time , would look much like if I argued that everyone should be thought Lunars, to provide from time-less longitude determination. The world simply will never just "black out".

Dave

I think people started calling MJ an idiot because no one here ever said anything about navigating using strictly paper, and then he got all excited about strictly paper Nav being bad advice, although nobody gave any such advice. Just MJ trying to get everyone stirred up with some BS, as usual.
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Old 29-12-2012, 12:11   #143
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Attachment 51625

My favorite place.
+1

Lovely. Me too.

Even when Im on land and my boat is in a nearby slip, I will go and sit in my nav station - check email, read a paper, read a book...
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Old 29-12-2012, 13:58   #144
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

I'm going to try one last time to make it clear that I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE USE OF GPS. I am not personally aware of any better method of position-finding than GPS. Under normal circumstances, I use other methods only in a supplementary role.

I'm not going to engage with the vocal minority fringe who persist in defending GPS and/or electronic navigation against an attack I am not making.

If you want to continue standing on a soapbox with your fingers in your ears, ranting, be my guest.
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Old 29-12-2012, 14:05   #145
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Re: Position Finding is not Navigation

Noelex points out that position finding is not navigation. I could not agree more. That's my point.

Ever since 'inertial navigators' and 'satellite navigators' began providing reliable positions with no human involvement, a subset of the human race have taken those names at face value, and come to believe that those technology items provided a complete and self-sufficient navigation service. ("Proposition 1"). They are mistaking position-finding for navigation.

This subset of the human race were not all lay people and neophytes, for instance they included the pilots and navigators in charge of setting and enforcing policy at Air New Zealand.

I single them out only because their policies proved catastrophically wrong. Even so, neither they nor the myriad other airlines with similar policies appear to have learned the hard lessons of Erebus.

Aircraft navigation is admittedly different because (provided you stay above the highest mountains) it is realistically possible to navigate relatively mindlessly from point to point, provided collision avoidance measures are effective.
It is MUCH more concerning when that mindset percolates down to sea level, as the container ship Rena demonstrated not long ago, sailing a straight line between waypoints which were both perfectly safe, onto a well-charted rock ledge.

It's not a safe bet to write such instances off as being the exclusive preserve of idiots. Highly regarded solo sailor Mike Golding found this out the hard way, on the other side of the same island. The assumptions he made when he chose his waypoints were overtaken by events.
Sailing boats do not travel in straight lines, and he ended up approaching a safe waypoint from an unexpected direction which took him over a shoal, on which he grounded.

He knew not to do that, but being tired, preoccupied and overworked, he did it anyway.

If he had not had a tool continuously telling him, he'd have needed to draw lines on the chart to know what course to steer to make the waypoint, and those lines would have shown him the unexpected danger.

It's easy from an armchair to scoff at him for not doing that, but it's also possible to argue that once you purchase a dog it does not seem necessary to bark.

If you look through the posts on this "Navigation" forum, you could be excused for thinking that the vast majority of forum participants believe in Proposition 1.

The posts are overwhelmingly about acquiring, upgrading, and otherwise tending to the needs of the tools, rather than the practice of navigation as Noelex might define it.

It's as if, in the pre-electronic era, discussion of navigation had been largely about sharpening pencils, buying charts, cleaning, lubricating and adjusting sextants and correcting compass error.
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Old 29-12-2012, 14:07   #146
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pirate Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I'm going to try one last time to make it clear that I AM NOT ARGUING AGAINST THE USE OF GPS. I am not personally aware of any better method of position-finding than GPS. Under normal circumstances, I use other methods only in a supplementary role.

I'm not going to engage with the vocal minority fringe who persist in defending GPS and/or electronic navigation against an attack I am not making.

If you want to continue standing on a soapbox with your fingers in your ears, ranting, be my guest.
Calling up a passing boat works pretty well too....
Thats an electronic technique....
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Old 29-12-2012, 14:16   #147
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

Navigation: I think not hitting something is so cool!

b.
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Old 29-12-2012, 14:19   #148
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pirate Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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Navigation: I think not hitting something is so cool!

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Not into the local pub then huh...
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Old 29-12-2012, 15:18   #149
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

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I'm not going to engage with the vocal minority fringe who persist in defending GPS and/or electronic navigation against an attack I am not making.
"Vocal minority fringe who persist is defending GPS..." Please direct me to these low life minority people so I can stop associating with the weirdo majority types.
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Old 29-12-2012, 15:46   #150
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Re: Distinct Activities: Shackled by a Common Name?

It comes to mind that, when we consider the incidents of collisions, accidents and errors while navigating, some people suceed with any of the combinations of tools from simple ded reckoning to all the latest technology and others fail with the same array of options. Isn't the burden always on the captain and crew and not the devices?
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