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Old 06-12-2009, 07:30   #76
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Nick when you succeed you never knows if it was from good seamanship or just luck. But when you fail you know that you where lacking of both. I let you enjoy your ultimate “setup” to me you sound like a Ferrari owner.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:37   #77
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Ferrari? No, I'm the Ford Mustang type ;-)

Good seamanship is not something discussed in this thread, but gathering information and deciding what of that to use to base decisions on is an important part of that. Accepting new technology and using it to improve safety of vessel and crew is very important too: this is how the explorers managed to achieve it when others cowered at home waters.

If you disregard radar as a useless toy that doesn't increase safety or even decreases safety, you stand very alone in my opinion and it's just not much use trying to convince each other when opinions are that far apart, so I'll stop trying

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 07-12-2009, 21:12   #78
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Quote:
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Good seamanship is not something discussed in this thread
ciao!
Nick.
Is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Accepting new technology and using it to improve safety of vessel and crew is very important too
ciao!
Nick.
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I got a visual on them so knew where to look on the screen
ciao!
Nick.
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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Without accurate pitch and roll information and gyro compensation of the compass itself (plus at least 10 Hz updates from the network), it will be so far off that it presents more danger than safety.
ciao!
Nick.
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If you disregard radar as a useless toy
ciao!
Nick.
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they are what puts semi-professional units apart from the "toys"
cheers!
Nick.
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A radar is not a toy
ciao!
Nick.


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Old 07-12-2009, 22:05   #79
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Congrats Chala, I really don't know what you are trying to do but I am sure you would do great in politics... but even there you're not supposed to take a couple of words out of a text and out of context.

cheers mate,
Nick.
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Old 09-12-2009, 16:53   #80
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FWIW....I upgraded about 1 year ago to Furuno NavNet3D from NavNet1 and the navigation instruments from Raymarine ST60 to ST70. The AutoPilot is Raymarine X10. This is all on a FP 43' Cat.

I've got the MFD12 inside, the MFD8 at the helm, and the DRS4D at the first set of speaders. I re-used a GP320B GPS for the Furuno. (1) ST70 inside and (1) at helm next to the ST70 AP controller. At the time no N2K instruments were available so the wind, depth, speed, temp are using the Raymarine transducer pods. I've also got a Furuno DFF1 and depth, speed, temp on the other hull. I used a generic Ethernet hub, couldn't stand the extra $600 for the Furuno model.

I'll withhold comments about why NMEA chose a CAN bus over Ethernet (but it was stupid, IMO). I've experienced some of the pains of NavNet3D 'growing up' along with the various vendors trying to lock you into their equipment while 'claiming' N2K compliant. It's all pretty stable now, although Airmar WeatherCaster software can cause the MFD to reboot. (I'll have to report that to Furuno.) Raymarine decided to make the transducer pods NOT N2K compliant, hence Furuno won't display wind without a N2K to 0183 gateway, which I just installed the new Actisense unit. I just added an Airmar G2183 GPS (I like redundancy) to the N2K network, Furuno and Raymarine both have no problems with it.

The NavNet3D radar is fantastic. I will never do a night crossing without radar. I didn't have ARPA on the NavNet1 (a $1200 option) and it's included in the NavNet3D. It uses the compass from the X10 on the N2K and it's great to be able to see not only how far away a vessel is, but their direction and speed/intersect time, etc. My first mate won't let me go down to rest at night without setting up the radar screen so she can watch/see all the vessels around us. I've 'tiptoed' thru 18 shrimpers in one night and knowing their heading/speed 3 or more miles out certainly makes adjusting course easy. Although the vector charts are cool, the raster charts work well for me, I grew up on them.

All in all, the NavNet3D is getting more stable/better with every update. The features are wonderful even though some are just toys. If I did it today, I would look hard for all N2K transducers - wind, depth, speed, temp. There are still a couple of configuration advantages to sticking with the Chartplotter brand for the transducers, but it'll work well if you stray on brands also. Oh yeah, I also have the Actisense N2K to USB gateway so I can 'watch' the network. Airmar WeatherCaster actually works thru the Actisense, so maybe these companies finally starting to move off their proprietary requirement and utilize the standards as envisioned by NMEA.

That's my story....
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Old 09-12-2009, 19:16   #81
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Great story Dotdun!

I looked at all this before and decided to wait a bit for more N2K products (sensors) to come out. My B&G Hydra2000 system cooperated until recently my wind sensor failed in addition to the magnetron in the old Raytheon radar. So now I have at least 10 times the choice and decided to go for it instead of pumping more money in the old system.

We too like ARPA a lot after we got a gyro stabilized heading sensor with 10Hz update frequency. Before that it was so inaccurate that it was unusable. Many cruisers that complain about ARPA lack the good sensor and Raytheon/Raymarine enable ARPA (MARPA) with any heading source, even if it's inadequate, so it's no surprise people try it and are disappointed. Same for radar overlay on charts, you need the good heading sensor for these features to work right.

We do it like you, track everyone at night and adjust course to stay far away from them (we aim at minimum 3 nm) long before we can see their nav lights. We confirm it on AIS which is a separate system now but will be integrated with the new kit. In addition to that we also use the good old manual plotting aids on the radar to confirm a target is going to cross our bow or not. It's just something to do during long night watches without anything else happening and makes the time tick away much faster ;-)

Can you explain me what that Airmar weatherCaster software is and does and how that can disturb the MFD?

ciao!
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Old 10-12-2009, 03:55   #82
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Evans, we actually agree on a lot

I agree with all your comments re Furuno 3D, its actually a dubious product, far too much influenced by maxsea ( its actually maxsea running in an embedded windows XP sytem). Its miles away from commercial Furuno.

I also concur with your comments re vector charts outside of the USA.Furuno scewed up royally here and it taking far too long to correct. ( its also expensive to buy these charts).

Quote:
Revolutionary new technology always comes with hick-ups and cruisers who didn't want that bought NavNet 2 instead.
Nick, PLeease what is revolutonary about 3D. real time pan and zoom, yeah right thats new, the hardware is windows xp for god sake.

Navnet 2D was a genuine MFD system, 3D is a PC system in disguise. ( including a hard disk !!!)
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:02   #83
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goboatingnow: I'm quite interested to hear what you think is wrong with the Navionics vector charts. I can't find much information aside from a few people on forums etc saying they're good. I've also heard that the East Coast Australia (navionics) vectors are very accurate.

Are these "datacore navionics" similar to Navionics Gold?

Cheers
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:04   #84
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FYI: Navnet2 also runs on XP embedded.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:49   #85
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Nick, PLeease what is revolutonary about 3D. real time pan and zoom, yeah right thats new, the hardware is windows xp for god sake.

Navnet 2D was a genuine MFD system, 3D is a PC system in disguise. ( including a hard disk !!!)
I believe NavNet3D is actually Windows CE. (even less stable than XP???)
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:20   #86
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No, it's Windows XP Embedded.
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:26   #87
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Can you explain me what that Airmar weatherCaster software is and does and how that can disturb the MFD?
Airmar is moving all their transducers to N2K, as are most companies. Since N2K resembles a real standards based communication network (as opposed to 0183), it's much easier to connect PCs, etc. and utilize the data. Just as Maretron 'gives away' their display software to get you to buy their gateway, Airmar has their Weathercaster software that runs on Windose that allows one to view the Airmar transducers. Of course, Airmar would like you buy their N2K/USB gateway, but I've found the Airmar software will work with the Actisense gateway (unlike the Maretron software). It's obvious when you run Weathercaster, it's geared towards the Airmar Ultrasonic weather transducer, but it does display GPS data, depth, wind, etc. and has some rudimentary network diagnostic capability.

So, when I ask Weathercaster to 'scan' the network for all devices (which it also does on startup), the MFD that is connected to the N2K network reboots. The reason I haven't gotten excited about it (yet), is the finger pointing contest that will happen when I report it. There are 3 companies involved, Actisense (NGT-1), Airmar (WeatherCaster), and Furuno (MFD12). In my mind, there isn't any PGN (N2K message) that can be sent towards the MFD that should cause it to reboot, hence I'll start with Furuno. That MFD should stay running even if I put a 1000 volts on N2K bus (optically protected). There is a chance the problem is the combination of Actisense and Airmar, but I would think Furuno would need to prove that. Anyway, Weathercaster is not essential to navigation so it's low on my priority list. I use Weathercaster only to set options on the G2183 GPS, of which Airmar needs to enhance so one can force which WAAS satellite to use. Right now you can set the 2D/3D actions and turn WAAS on or off, but not specify the PRN to use. There are a couple of other issues I have with the G2183, it doesn't report the WAAS sat in the 'Sats in view' PGN and I don't think they calculate DOP correctly. I have a conversation going with Airmar tech support on those.

I hope this helps.....
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:46   #88
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goboatingnow: I'm quite interested to hear what you think is wrong with the Navionics vector charts. I can't find much information aside from a few people on forums etc saying they're good. I've also heard that the East Coast Australia (navionics) vectors are very accurate.

Are these "datacore navionics" similar to Navionics Gold?

Cheers
On the North Coast Navionics Gold miss few buoys and descriptions and who knows what else.
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:51   #89
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I'm quite interested to hear what you think is wrong with the Navionics vector charts. I can't find much information aside from a few people on forums etc saying they're good
TRevc, what I was saying that Furuno, screwed up the release of these charts for outside USA, because , I beleive, that the deal they worked out with the supplier didnt hold. Hence the vector charts are only becoming available ( and you have to load the 3D and satellitte stuff seperately).

The mapmedia charts are fine and yes I beleive they are using teh navionics vector dataset, which is generally well received. But Furuno still messed up the product launch. This meant that many people have got ( and are still getting) 3d systems with poor raster charts and there experience was and is substandard. A company like Furuno should have allowed this to happen and I agree with evans when he states that the pleasure stuff is very different from comercial furuno.. In fact I beleive that Furuno has traded too long on its commercial repututation and I am deeply supecious of companies that do this ( a bit likes Saabs ads that include there fighter planes!!). At least companies like Garmin and Raymarine, just have a leisure business to build whatever their reputation is on.

I like Furuno gear , but I have ssen it fail like all the others, I really dont think their leisure stuff is any better or worse then the others.
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:56   #90
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On the North Coast Navionics Gold miss few buoys and descriptions and who knows what else.
Are there any charts that are accurate up there?

goboatingnow: Thanks for taking the time to clarify. Cheers
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