Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-11-2009, 15:15   #46
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Sandy,

the Furuno GP-32 is from the same era as the Garmin 128. Both will last forever. I must admit I never operated a Garmin radar, but I can't really think of anything simpler than Furuno radars. Really, for all the radar manufacturers, Furuno is the one to beat, the benchmark reference. I find dual range one of the more useful features for in-shore work and I find it a much better option that a single-range broadband radar because close-range is nice but I want the big picture too.

About that engine-dials only example: it's their reasoning behind it that bothers me.

@defjef: you want Furuno (or Garmin?) with ethernet. All data is bridged onto the ethernet and you can use any $50 wifi-router to make that wireless. Use Franson GPSGate to convert it back to "serial" data for applications that can't deal with the ethernet directly (MaxSea will take the Ethernet directly).

I have no love for wireless sensors like tacktic. I don't consider it robust enough, easily broken by other wireless technology like VHF, SSB, cellphone, wifi, bluetooth etc.

@HHNTR: the new Furuno weatherfax is great. It stores all on internal memory and you can use any device with webbrowser to get it, even an iPhone. The Furuno plotter uses it's internal web browser to access it too.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2009, 02:41   #47
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,755
Has anyone mentioned the word "AMPS". We like to have our plotter on most of the time, and those big fancy bright screens consume amps. I like a small dark one

Furuno's 3d DOES NOT come from its commercial line - I would guess the tech trickles down from the military line. I have used and installed furuno commercial gear and it's all old tech, for a reason (their 2117 radar in particular is excellent). The IMO (ships) regs state (this is not verbatim but the general idea) that the radar can only be a radar - you should not have fancy overlays or windows or dual ranges. The IMO want the unit to be reliable and hard for the crew to mess up. If the ship wants dual range they have two radar (and most do). There are two messages here: (1) the furuno 3d/broadband stuff does not have a commercial herritage and when launched was very buggy, (2) there are good reasons NOT to have integrated fancy systems and the IMO is in that camp.

No-one has mentioned it but simrad is also selling a pretty nice broadband radar these days.

I hope no-one comes away from this thread thinking that your nav station has to look like a stealth fighter cockpit for you to be safe. Its nice to have a reliable depth sounder and a small chart plotter and a VERY reliable autopilot that can handle the boat in all conditions. And a decent vhf is useful. And its nice if these can all be low amp draws since they will be on ALOT. Everything past that is pretty far along the optional list IMHO.
__________________

__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2009, 03:48   #48
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,088
I have a full suite of instruments on the boat, ais depth AP etc etc - what I dont have is radar, cant afford the power, and the boat is only 6 months old, but if I was doing it allover again, which I hope to in a few years time - I will almost certainly have sounder and Ap, and everything else wil be run from a Mac mini based computer network.
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2009, 13:41   #49
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
The IMO (ships) regs state (this is not verbatim but the general idea) that the radar can only be a radar
This isnt the case, chart overlaid radar is fully acceptable to IMO standards

From an electronics perspective, theres no particular advantage in seperate units, actually its far better to have two fully capable MFD's rather then say a radar and a sperate chart plotter. Then at least in the first case you have a degree of redundancy, With seperate units if a unit fails then that functionality is completely lost.



Chart overlays are also useful for both simplyng radar and useful to verify chart positioning

Quote:
I have a full suite of instruments on the boat, ais depth AP etc etc - what I dont have is radar, cant afford the power
Why , most pleasure radar units take about 30W operating and about 9-10W standby, thats about 2.7 amp hours of comsumption. Thats very little.
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2009, 14:33   #50
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This isnt the case, chart overlaid radar is fully acceptable to IMO standards

most pleasure radar units take about 30W operating and about 9-10W standby, thats about 2.7 amp hours of comsumption. Thats very little.
Regarding the first - my point was that the Furuno 3D gear is very different from the Furuno commercial gear and that is not it's heritage and it cannot be cited as a reason to expect the 3D/broadband gear to work well. I think that is all clear and unambiguous.

Regarding the IMO - I did say I was not quoting the regs verbatim. if you want to get to the specifics . . . The IMO does allow multi-function displays, but they are clearly and unambiguously concerned about the possibility of overlays and windows obscuring and masking critical information. The actual radar requirement reads: "Vector chart (but note - not raster chart as used in many recreational systems) information may be displayed on a radar presentation. However map graphics must not substantially degrade, mask or obscure the radar video, tracked radar targets and AIS targets." and the chart plotter requirement reads: "Chart information should not be substantially degraded, masked or obscured by other presented information." So, the challenge is to display the two sets of information without 'substantially degrading, masking or obscuring" either. If you look at Furuno's commercial line, just for instance, you will see the 2117 radar, where the primary display is just a (very good) radar display and the FEA2107 ECDIS plotter which can take overlays suggesting a furuno solution of a dedicated primary radar display with a plotter display where the radar can be toggled on and off.

Regarding your second point - 30watts would be roughly 60amp-hours (not 2.7amp-hours) for a day. A cruising boat might have a 200amp-hr daily electrical budget, so that would be a 30% increase. Obviously this would not be any problem for a trawler or a for a high power consumption genset sailboat, but it is in fact a lot of energy for a more modest cruising sail boat.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-2009, 17:05   #51
Vendor
 
witzgall's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,777
Nick;

I have a mult-vendor N2k Network on our boat:
Garmin GMI10
Simrad IS12 Combi depth/speed
Lorwrance 7300 hd Chartplotter
Simrad TP 32 tiller pilot
Lowrance LVR-880 VHF radio

Here is what I can add based on my experience. Simrad is good stuff, but their support, shared with Lowrance, is so-so.
The Garmin display is great. They could work on the firmware to give some more flexibility on the configuration of screens, but it works well. There has been at least one firmware update since I installed, nad I don't have a garmin unit to upgrade it, so I have not done so yet. With the price of these, you could three compared to the two maretron, and have both redundancy, and more screen real estate. Put two in the cockpit and one at the nav station.
Use 100% Maretron cabling/connectors. I used all of the different connectors that came with my units, and made up cables for the rest needed using Maretron field attachable connectors. They are a bit of a pita to put together, but are very robust. The Garmin connectors are the worst, flimsy and are keyed 45 degrees from the rest, so that you cannot put them in-line with other brands and have them all line up.
Consider the cheap Lowrance radio as a backup. It does N2k, less than $200, and see how the Garmin is received once out on the market. The Standard Horizon looks promising - they are made by the same company that makes Yaesu Ham gear, well made, a bit over zealous over use of buttons for multiple uses makes things less user friendly.

If you are pulling out separate speed and depth transducers, consider putting in two DST800s, and have an off-line backup.

Chris
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2009, 11:58   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
The RN-300 GPS went long ago when that utterly flawed design drove me mad enough to toss it out of sight.
cheers,
Nick.
Nick you must be a hard man my RN-300 GPS is one of my best instrument and I do not think that it was manufactured by (Autohelm Raytheon Raymarine) who only added Seatalk to it in such a way it could be used as a repeater. RN-300 GPS night illumination, graphic quality and presentation still make it far superior to a today ST 60 graphic and I would buy another one if I could.
The other day I sailed through two electrical storms. The first one, for more than four hours my VHF aerial spitted sparks (
Quote:
Originally Posted by chala View Post
When in an electrical storm I disconnect my aerial.
) Each sparks powerful enough to give you a good shock. It even gives me the idea that the next time I may try to harness this power. The second storm affected my electronic compass by 90 degrees, I have two on board, the wind direction started to spin around and other LCD instrument started rolling numbers like a one arm bandit. So Nick would your Ultimate integrated instrument setup be better at resisting static or would you be like me hooked to your steering mechanism trying to make sense of a conventional compass?
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
What's important: the less crew you have, the more important the electronics package becomes.
cheers,
Nick.
Not necessarily, an extra pair of eyes on watch may be more useful that some one riveted to a radar screen, I doubt that a radar may be able to show a practice target tow few meter behind a Navy launch who does not intend to give you the right of way.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2009, 12:10   #53
Registered User
 
Fishman_Tx's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beeville, Tx.
Boat: 1969 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch "Lady Catherine II", 1973 Bristol 34 - "Our Baby"(RIP), Catalina 22
Posts: 876
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
No-one has mentioned it but simrad is also selling a pretty nice broadband radar these days.
It's the same unit. Simrad, Lowrance, and Northstar; all same Navico BB radar unit. Notice the PRICE ain't the same tho!
__________________
Fish
"Behind every great man there is a woman, rolling her eyes."
But not for long! Now she's gone!
and peace and tranquility reign forever!
1969 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch
Fishman_Tx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2009, 14:44   #54
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
@witzgall: I'm strange so I'll go with two Maretron displays instead of 3 Garmins ;-) But I will add two Furuno instruments too: analog wind and big-digit-digital (mainly for depth). I only need 1 Maretron in the cockpit, mainly for it's GPS "steering lane" display.

@chala: you must have one of the early revisions. They refused to send me the firmware of those. The only other ones that I saw stable were operating on 24V instead of 12V.
Quote:
[...]an extra pair of eyes on watch may be more useful that some one riveted to a radar screen, I doubt that a radar may be able to show a practice target tow few meter behind a Navy launch who does not intend to give you the right of way.
A radar is not a toy so it makes no sense to use radar for situations where all you need are your eyes. It's used for night, fog etc. Extra eyes on the lookout don't help there.
Also, it greatly speeds up other navigation tasks, like taking a bearing to a marker or land-feature etc. You will be at the chart-table with compasses and stuff for 5 minutes while I can get that info in 5 seconds.
So what I meant with my remark: if it's just the two for crew, at some point it doesn't help to be both on the lookout... like when both can't see. At that point, without advanced electronics, one has to steer (meaning not so good lookout compared to full lookout with AP engaged) while the other one needs to plot GPS position on paper chart and determine which course to a channel entrance etc. With other traffic around, that course might not be possible leading to hectic navigation or to stopping the boat so that navigation can keep up. All that can be avoided with a radar. There is nothing better at increasing your safety than a radar in those situations.

@estarzinger: I can assure you that commercial Furuno radars are very advanced. I think you might have been looking at 20 year old models... The FAR radars are like a dream, are fully computerized with advanced signal processing etc. and they can even be integrated with MaxSea because they have the same Ethernet connectivity like the 3D. Also, when IMO prohibits something, that doesn't mean the IMO approved sets can't do that... they can ;-) This means that Furuno has the expertise and they use that expertise to bring the technology into the consumer line, while others need to wander onto a path never walked on before. I don't mean that the 3D radars have commercial components inside or anything like that.
I will bet that one of the next steps in the 3D line is the merging of ARPA & AIS targets into one symbol like they do with the FAR radars now. That will put the other consumer grade manufacturers even further back. It's just software routines that they can copy into the 3D models and they have the routines functional in the commercial line while the others never wrote a line of code yet.

Also, vector charts are common on consumer plotters, what makes you think otherwise? Even my ancient Raytheon has vector C-Map.
Power drain: you calculate for the radar transmitting 24 hours a day. Sure you can do that but I think you're really trying to convince yourself why not to have radar. Even solo sailors can use the "watch-keeper" function to limit that to 2 hours transmit every 24 hours.

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 00:25   #55
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Custom Van De Stadt 47 Samoa
Posts: 3,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
@estarzinger: I can assure you that commercial Furuno radars are very advanced. I think you might have been looking at 20 year old models... The FAR radars are like a dream, are
Sorry, but I am installing a commercial Furuno system (Far2117 radar and CH250 search light sonar) right this moment, so I think I am quite up-to-date.

We are having a feed from the radar to maxsea on the 'communication computer' and can do overlays there and gribs etc, but are having the primary screens dedicated - radar/sonar/plotter. We have a second system - simrad digital radar and plotter that is the normal short range recreational system that does more windows/overlays but is not IMO.

I really don't think there is any question that radar represents a big electrical draw on a 'normal' cruising boat. However you choose to do the calculations it's a bunch of amps. You may have had better luck with the 'watch keeper' feature than I, but I don't like it - it has both too many false positives (make a false alarm when it sees a wave in the watch zone), and false negatives (misses a trawler on one or two scans). If I want/need the radar, I want it on.

No, I am not trying to convince myself that I don't need radar. I know I don't NEED radar. But I do like having it available.

Yes, vectors are common on consumer plotters, but rasters are also common on the pc programs like Maxsea (which does both) and that is not IMO, that was my only point.
__________________
estarzinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 00:26   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lexcen 40 - Leverage
Posts: 383
MFD12 and cartography

OK, I've been intently following this thread and Nick has me convinced that I must have all the Furuno gear.. I'm sold.

So, next step... I started reading the manuals and doing my research... everything appears OK except that there appear to be issues with the maps... in that they're not available except in the US or somesuch. After spending way too much time reading unhelpful manuals/newsletters/you-name-it - I decided to send Mapmedia an email - but am not expecting a reply.

When (if) I receive a reply, I will post it here - but in the meantime (or in case there is no reply) - can anybody help with the questions?

Especially with the Fax30 and the other goodies also on the network and the ability to overlay all the info on the charts - the Furuno MFD12 looks AMAZING... but it's all useless without the charts - somebody please help me!

Thanks muchly in advance!


***********
Greetings,

I am looking at purchasing a Furuno Navnet 3D MFD 12 unit + associated devices. Having read through all of their documentation and your website, I still cannot find any hint as to the cartography which exists or doesn't, is usable or is not.

Furuno documentation suggests looking at the Mapmedia Cartography Catalog for availability information.

I have done this, but cannot understand it. Firstly, from your main site MapMedia Electronic Charts - Raster and Vector Charts - clicking on the "mm3d catalog" link - it redirects to the Maxsea site. Navigating through the catalogue - there are references to only "Classic" coverage areas and "Wide" areas - yet the same page states that it is the "Cartography » [.mm3d] Charts Catalog" section... despite this - Furuno's manuals state that "Mapmedia Classic Cartography will not work with the MFD8/12"....?

I also note that the catalog site allows downloads of the vector format cartography for all regions for free - yet there are references in the Furuno documentation that state that maps must be bought from "an authorized dealer" and requirements for unlock codes. Yet after spending half my day trying to make sense of all of this, I can only find one store Discount Marine and Boat Supplies - Inflatable Sales - Defender who sells ANY Mapmedia cartography suitable for the Furuno Navnet3d devices - and the charts offered are only US based - nothing else (I have no interest in US charts).

Can you please clarify the following:
  • Which maps are available today in vector format that are usable with the Furuno NN3D units? Specifically - the full vector 3D maps outside of the US.
  • Are the maps which are downloadable from your catalog site installable and usable? Are they free? If not, what are these maps for?
  • If not downloadable, can you point me towards a handful of online retailers from whom I can order the maps or unlock codes etc - for maps outside of the US? Web addresses please.
  • There appears to be a lot of unhappiness about the availability of maps for the NN3D units - so if there aren't any complete, vector maps available outside of the US - is there a timeline for this?
Thank you in advance and looking forward to hearing from you soon.

*************
__________________
akio.kanemoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 05:43   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
It's used for night, fog etc. Extra eyes on the lookout don't help there.
ciao!
Nick.
I totally disagree. Radar does not see navigation lights. Eyes do and the more the better, radar does not coordinate an evasive action eyes do. A lot of collision are due to radar, for my self in heavy trafic I feel vulnerable if I spend to much time watching my radar.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 06:00   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post

I really don't think there is any question that radar represents a big electrical draw on a 'normal' cruising boat.
I thought that PC where the biggest waste of power on a 'normal' cruising boat.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 06:12   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto View Post
OK, I've been intently following this thread and Nick has me convinced that I must have all the Furuno gear.. I'm sold.
*************
Nick who knows, after such successful advertising campaign you may get a free one.
__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2009, 07:16   #60
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
I really don't think there is any question that radar represents a big electrical draw on a 'normal' cruising boat.
Firstly, my fiqure of 2.7 amp hours was perhour ( thats what amp hours are, amps over an hour). and like you I can multiply by 24.

Secondly no radar needs to be on ( in a pleasure vessel). 24 hours. Radar is perhaps the best piece of kit on board, and I take it before an autopilot. Typically it can be powered up in 30 secs or less from standby, My computations showed that the radar on a average day ( using it mostly at night) was comsuming about 20 amp hours. That not dfficult to sustain in a modern cruising boat, compare it to the massive ammounts taken by refrigeration for example.

Your views on IMO equipment are disengenious. The systems are far more integrated and extensive then pleasure equipment.
__________________

__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.