Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

[David_Old_Jersey]

With all due respect to my fellow Forum members (which is polite for ) I would sooner navigate using the power of crystals than use data provided via the average boat owner. Let alone a Cloud of them

and I am sure the feeling is reciprocated

[wannago]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Let me show you what I do with Google Earth:



Overlay secret plans on the sat image

You can overlay nautical charts too... how's that change your minds?

ciao!
Nick.

Wholly and entirely useless and can't be trusted even for planning!!!

unless of course, it was printed out, on paper, then once it's on paper and we can fumble about with a compass and ruler on it at the chart table it can be trusted. (instead of at the helm, looking at boat icon in the middle of it representing where GPS thinks we are, and glancing around to decided if that seems reasonable) If you have a 24x36 inch printer, we'll just assume it was handed down from god, and updated by him nightly.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by jackdale

And if there is no access to the internet ...

The World-Wide Web is not so world wide.

Google Earth images can be cached onto your computer hard drive so that Google Earth operates without being connected to the internet.

I've used it and will continue to do so.

About time for everyone to get up with technology and have a go at it yourselves.



The argument saying use all available information is fallacious if one doesn't use Google earth and other modern sources of information

By the way, the image date is on the images from Google earth. It doesn't take much of a brain to work out if something in 2 years old or 10.
And 10 years old is far newer than info on most paper charts that cruisers have.

[wannago]

Google Earth, with a little fancy magic to mosaic images and put the correct coordinates on them, displays aerial photography, or lacking this satellite images. Google uses the best aerial photography they can access, and I think most of what they use is publicly accessible via other means.
Understanding Google Earth imagery : About Google Earth - Google Earth Help

Taking the fact that it's from google out of the equation, and ask yourself if it's usefull to have aerial photographs of an area you sailing in? There's a pretty good chance that some of the charts you are using, whether paper or digital, had some information on them derived from those same photos. It's probably one of the easiest ways to draw the coastline accurately for a chart, tracing the coastline on the photo, and noting obstructions. Sure, they had more information than a stack of photos, but it's one of the raw information sources they are using.

Obviously, they don't label the depth for you. They could be old, and the plane taking them could have gone through a cloud (they usually try and avoid that). But, it's still a picture of the area and will generally show the coastline and any large obstructions that were there.

Poorer countries that can't afford to publish updated charts probably also have some limitations in commissioning aerial photography. So you might likely have some of the same issues with charts or images in google Earth. But at least the images in Google Earth are easy to get.

[Don1500]

Originally Posted by wannago

Obviously, they don't label the depth for you. They could be old, and the plane taking them could have gone through a cloud (they usually try and avoid that). But, it's still a picture of the area and will generally show the coastline and any large obstructions that were there.

Soon (Not Tomorrow) with the improvements in remote data aqusition they will be able to give accurate depth data to the inch in 100' of ocean (10,000' for the military) from a geosynchronous orbiting satalite system, real time. And the internet will be available with a direct 1Gbit link anywhere on earth, for free. Then charts will be ALMOST obsolete. You'll still need them to make laminated placemats and keep the Coast Guard happy.

[smurphny]

Originally Posted by Don1500

Soon (Not Tomorrow) with the improvements in remote data aqusition they will be able to give accurate depth data to the inch in 100' of ocean (10,000' for the military) from a geosynchronous orbiting satalite system, real time. And the internet will be available with a direct 1Gbit link anywhere on earth, for free. Then charts will be ALMOST obsolete. You'll still need them to make laminated placemats and keep the Coast Guard happy.

I heard about this a few months ago, the GE Ocean idea, but nothing since. Is there any news about GE depth data? What do you think the time frame looks like for this technology to come into existence? Whenever it happens the CG will take another 10 years to get aboard.

[Don1500]

Originally Posted by smurphny

I heard about this a few months ago, the GE Ocean idea, but nothing since. Is there any news about GE depth data? What do you think the time frame looks like for this technology to come into existence? Whenever it happens the CG will take another 10 years to get aboard.

To tell the truth I have never heard of it, I was just extrapolating from the growth of technology in the past 50 years. And if GE were to come out with that technology in 5 years it would mean that it is already available to the military. Real time depth data would be VERY secret if it were available because of the usefulness of it.

[smurphny]

I forget the particulars but there was talk of crowd-sourcing depth and nav. data a while back. Saw a website (that I did not bookmark) where someone was beginning to compile free data. Will have to do some surfing around to see if there's anything happening with it.

[wannago]

Originally Posted by Don1500

To tell the truth I have never heard of it, I was just extrapolating from the growth of technology in the past 50 years. And if GE were to come out with that technology in 5 years it would mean that it is already available to the military. Real time depth data would be VERY secret if it were available because of the usefulness of it.

Maybe the people sticking to paper charts have a point when they have people trying to convince them GE is the way or the future and are just making stuff up.

Satellites, aerial photos, and all the current imaging technology that I'm aware of that works remotely over broad areas relies on light. Some of it uses color spectrum that aren't visible to the human eye. But they use light, and don't work well through things that block light, like water.

If the navy wants to map things, they send a boat or a sub. I'm sure some of the subs have collected some highly accurate data that we'll never see. But I'm sure there no unclassified methods to collect this via satellite, or even airplane.

Consider all those rumors about how clear the resolution of military satellites are, apply a little logic, and ask why they use those predator drones so much? They might have some really fancy stuff, but it still follows the laws of physics.....

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by wannago

Some's these arguments are, how can I say politely, missing some of the real issues. Like the guy who tries to navigate up some narrow channel looking only at his chart plotter and not seeing the rock dead ahead of him... An argument for paper charts? like he would have been so much better off trying to steer the boat with a piece of paper and a compass and ruler, still not looking up?

NOAA, I'm sure, long ago stopped drawing charts with pencils. Put a GPS on the mast, calibrate exactly how far below it the depth finder is, hook that all into a data collection computer and let the auto pilot steer through the grid. Adjust measurements with tide station based on timestamps, computer kicks out a chart. Send it to the print shop and you've got the paper version. Do you really think there's something on the version sent to the print shop that wasn't on the one uploaded to the website?

Google Earth collects digital imagery from many source. In my neighborhood I believe they get high res aerial photos from the state DOT, and I don't think the DOT spends much time taking pictures of the water, but they got most of the coastline pretty well covered.

In remote areas, where there's no DOT or any other government with any sort of engineering dept, I think they rely mostly on French SPOT satellite imagery. The SPOT satellites have been in orbit for at least a decade (2 I think) and there resolution is limited. But I think they are still working, and imagery from them should still be as current as the last time they flew over.

I have no idea how Google georeferences there imagery but I've had some experience with photogrammetry dating back 15 years ago and can tell you that back then they were on the cusps of being able to map the hell out of anything in 3D with some high res photos and GPS on the plane, as long as the could correctly measure the planes pitch and yawl. And your assumed accuracy of GPS is really only for real time navigational purposes, land surveyors and cartographers have known for years how to post process GPS measurements to gather vectors to/from known fixed locations for millimeter accuracy. With 20 year old satellites, it's possible they just guess where the satellite is based on it's orbit (and those predictions also account for much of the accuracy issues with GPS).

Before arguing for / against any of these tools or sources of data, you should really understand what the tools do and where the data they use comes from. Otherwise, your only real reason to stick with paper charts is lightning could hit your boat.

It would be a good argument if that's how people really used chartplotters. My experience is that with a chart, you constantly check the paper with the real world; with a chartplotter, the helmsman becomes mesmerized by the little screen.

It's like a video game. I admit, this has happened to me and I have seen the same thing happen to others.

In any case, the chartplotter screen can only reveal (in detail) a very small perspective. For the "big picture" there's no substute for paper.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Don1500

Soon (Not Tomorrow) with the improvements in remote data aqusition they will be able to give accurate depth data to the inch in 100' of ocean (10,000' for the military) from a geosynchronous orbiting satalite system, real time.

The technology must be currently available now.

I was amazed a few weeks ago that satellites can look through the earth and find underground voids. So surely underwater survey can now be done from a comfy office at Mission Control.

Seventeen lost pyramids and more than 1000 tombs have been found in a satellite survey of Egypt.

Read more: New pyramids discovered

Roll it on!

[doug86]

Originally Posted by sneuman

For the "big picture" there's no substute for paper.

Suppose someone told you that digital charts are updated every week, and paper charts are updated every six years? Your paper "big picture" could be wrong; in fact, it probably is out of date.

Do you (or anyone on this thread) actually pour over the Local Notice to Mariners every week, and actually make the corrections on your paper charts. On every single paper chart you own? Every week? Yeah, right, sure you do!

Paper chart system for noting a missing navaid: someone reports a normally floating buoy is sitting on a sand bar; high and dry. Someone else takes the discrepancy report and it gets put into an Marine Information Radio Broadcast for the next week or so. Once the issue is verified, it is reported as a discrepancy in the next issue of Local Notice to Mariners, which is then mailed to you if you subscribe. If the buoy is to be placed in a new location, that new position is reported in yet another LNM. In 5 or 6 years, the new buoy position shows up on a paper chart.

Digital version of same problem: As soon as buoy is verified as in the wrong place, it can be 'tagged' on digital charts as un-reliable or 'scheduled for re-placement'. People using up to date digital charts are quickly apprised of an issue with that buoy and take precautions transiting the area. As soon as a new buoy is placed, the new digital charts show its new position and folks using a chart plotter are getting the most up to date information..... folks using a 4 year old paper chart are wondering why that buoy is in the wrong place according to their charts.

[James Baines]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

The technology must be currently available now.

As Wannago points out, it is unlikely that mapping the global ocean floor would be accomplished using conventional satellite cameras such as those used on commercial satellites.
Pulsing in a variety of different wavelengths and cleverly interpreting and combining the feedback into useful data is required to generate satellite generated ocean floor topography and I have no doubt that the US alphabet soup agencies have been gathering data that way for quite a while.
However, as Don1500 suggests, the information gathered and collated with other bottom sounding techniques is of such great economic value (Forget lost treasure ships, think rare and valuable natural resources) that we, the great unwashed, are unlikely to have access to it anytime soon.
We will undoubtedly be given access to Some of the data in the fullness of time but not until the ownership of the valuable resources has been cast in concrete.
And to those sceptics who believe that the US “Agencies” can’t keep secrets, back in 1964, I worked on the SR71 program and to the best of my knowledge, the general public did not become aware of “Blackbird” until some 25 years later. The US Can and Does protect its secrets very well.
Have global ocean floor topography and “Resource Value” charts already been produced? I would bet my last Coors Light on it……James

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by doug86

Suppose someone told you that digital charts are updated every week, and paper charts are updated every six years? Your paper "big picture" could be wrong; in fact, it probably is out of date.

Do you (or anyone on this thread) actually pour over the Local Notice to Mariners every week, and actually make the corrections on your paper charts. On every single paper chart you own? Every week? Yeah, right, sure you do!

Paper chart system for noting a missing navaid: someone reports a normally floating buoy is sitting on a sand bar; high and dry. Someone else takes the discrepancy report and it gets put into an Marine Information Radio Broadcast for the next week or so. Once the issue is verified, it is reported as a discrepancy in the next issue of Local Notice to Mariners, which is then mailed to you if you subscribe. If the buoy is to be placed in a new location, that new position is reported in yet another LNM. In 5 or 6 years, the new buoy position shows up on a paper chart.

Digital version of same problem: As soon as buoy is verified as in the wrong place, it can be 'tagged' on digital charts as un-reliable or 'scheduled for re-placement'. People using up to date digital charts are quickly apprised of an issue with that buoy and take precautions transiting the area. As soon as a new buoy is placed, the new digital charts show its new position and folks using a chart plotter are getting the most up to date information..... folks using a 4 year old paper chart are wondering why that buoy is in the wrong place according to their charts.

I agree but I have a Garmin and there is not an inexpensive way to keep up like you suggest. Even their charts on my new unit don't have some nav aids I have see.

Uploading to a card every third week when I get time to go to the boat isn't there. Neither method works for me.

[doug86]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I agree but I have a Garmin and there is not an inexpensive way to keep up like you suggest. Even their charts on my new unit don't have some nav aids I have see.

Uploading to a card every third week when I get time to go to the boat isn't there. Neither method works for me.

Therapy, I think I was speaking more in a sort of hypothetical sense, although what I wrote is about 90% happening now with some of the technology. NOAA raster scan charts are free, and the price of private vector charts will come down quickly as the technology to produce them reaches the crowd-source level.

In a year or two, most new chart plotters will have wifi or internet cell capability (including new Garmins), and they will be receiving live updates when ever an internet connection is present. This service will be pretty cheap at first, and then become almost free as more and more companies compete to provide you with up to date info. The chart plotter companies like Garmin are already feeling the competition from PC based software that can use free charts. And, in some cases the software is free too (like OpenCPN). For a few hundred bucks, you can have a full feature chart plotter; why invest $4k in a Garmin?

In 5 years, daily chart updates will be available over most of the globe via inexpensive oneway satellite downloads, similar to what the SPOT devices now work on. These updates will include depth data that is probably only a few days old, not decades old.

By the year 2020, anyone reading this thread will be laughing uproariously at the idea that cruisers wanted to use paper charts, just as we do for anyone who claims that they rely on an RDF unit today.

Think of the internet; a wild, open world of information with thousands of resources using thousands of business models. You have many choices for just email. Some are free, some charge. You can subscribe to thousands of news feeds; some are free, some charge.

Imagine that system plugged into the needs of a navigator: thousands of ways to find the depths of a channel, some are free, some charge. Thousands of resources to provide you with a chart of the coastline if you have the software to see their product. Already, there are hundreds of sites that have tide data for the entire globe. Wind and weather at your mouse button for free.

The chart plotter companies (like Garmin) are still about 24 months behind the curve, and they are trying to catch up. Catching up with a web based service is very difficult for a hardware manufacturer. The task they are faced with is building a web browser, not a chart plotter. Christ, you can get a really great chart plotter for free if you own a cheap laptop. (OpenCPN)

The names in navigation today are Garmin, Furuno, Raymarine, Standard, Lowrance, Simrad etc. The names in navigation in 8 years might be Apple, Google, Mozilla, or ??