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Old 21-03-2011, 06:22   #106
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Ah, the paper vs. chart plotter debate. Always happy to re-hash this topic.

Piloting skills and advanced navigation tend to go hand in hand with better seamanship. It's rare to meet a great celestial navigator who isn't a great sailor, but it's very common to meet someone steering with a chart plotter who doesn't know a bow from a stern.

I have no idea if a chart plotters track DR positions (I don't know why they would), but one great way to determine if there's a cyclone nearby is by currents that are very abnormal from what should be going on. No set and drift without a DR, and no DR if you're not on paper, and then no course to steer because the chart plotter is keeping course to steer up to date.

Chart plotters abstract a lot of details away from you which can be very important. I wouldn't feel comfortable boarding a cruise ship if the bridge crew only had electronic navigation and the captain put his thumb up his ass when he had to use something other than a gps/chartplotter to get a lot of people home.

Charting and piloting is fun too. You're more aware of navigation aids, currents, shipping lanes, and just overall have a much bigger view of what's going on.
I couldn't agree more.
As an ex Royal navy sailing and seamanship instructor, and marine police officer (to name but two of my nautical accomplishments) it has been my experience that the seamen using paper charts were in general vastly better and more knowledgable than the boaters using electronics to do the thinking for them.

I mean no disrespect to any one as there are always the exceptions.
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Old 21-03-2011, 06:28   #107
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Ah, now we get people who admit they don't know much (or anything?) about chartplotters, telling us that they are no good.

FYI: yes, they do DR when needed. Like repeated many times already: an electronic chart is a chart... it's more chart than a paper chart; in fact, the paper chart was made by printing the electronic chart.

cheers,
Nick.
Just remind me as I forget now. Which chart plotter did Capt James Cook and Capt Robert FitzRoy have to make their charts from?
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Old 21-03-2011, 06:55   #108
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Just remind me as I forget now. Which chart plotter did Capt James Cook and Capt Robert FitzRoy have to make their charts from?
They didn't have to.. just snatched and used the Dutch charts from Abel Tasman

cheers,
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Old 21-03-2011, 10:35   #109
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

As soon as you can Guarantee that there will NOT be a power interruption, or equipment failure, paper charts will be used as fire starters for the barbeque. But then again millions of people stake their lives on electronic navigation and control every day, and once in a while they lose. A case in point: Lan Chile 757(?), static port covered with tape. Not even a real "failure", human error. (I know paper charts would not have helped, it is the electronic part I am referring to.) The pilots flew the aircraft into the ocean because they depended on their instruments to be right, to heck with what they saw (didn't see?) out the window.
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Old 21-03-2011, 10:40   #110
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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As soon as you can Guarantee that there will NOT be a power interruption, or equipment failure, paper charts will be used as fire starters for the barbeque.
On the other hand, can you walk onto a boat that uses paper charts and guarantee that they are current (most are years out of date) and that they won't catch on fire in a lightening strike or be destroyed by an errant wave crashing through a window?

The key is having multiple sources to mitigate loss of function. I just think that having multiple sources of electronic navigation provides better backup and usability than getting paper involved in any way. I believe that started happening in a practical way late in 2010.
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Old 21-03-2011, 10:59   #111
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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The pilots flew the aircraft into the ocean because they depended on their instruments to be right, to heck with what they saw (didn't see?) out the window.
Electronic charts don't really change much in that part of the equation. Electronic charts do not equal "GPS" - they are complimentary technologies.

They certainly don't equal "look at the chart, not outside". ENCs provide enabling technology that helps better navigators navigate. They don't/can't/should not save people from making mistakes, in particular in something as basic and as crucial as good seamanship. imho/ymmv
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Old 21-03-2011, 11:33   #112
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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As soon as you can Guarantee that there will NOT be a power interruption, or equipment failure, paper charts will be used as fire starters for the barbeque. But then again millions of people stake their lives on electronic navigation and control every day, and once in a while they lose. A case in point: Lan Chile 757(?), static port covered with tape. Not even a real "failure", human error. (I know paper charts would not have helped, it is the electronic part I am referring to.) The pilots flew the aircraft into the ocean because they depended on their instruments to be right, to heck with what they saw (didn't see?) out the window
UNfortunately Don150, while you might see the world that way, its not the way humans work, every day we undertake activities that have a defined failure rate that can lead to death, cars being a particular one. If you applied your " Guarantee" to any form of transport, we'd still be riding donkeys.

Paper charts are ultimately doomed, convience, cost, distribution, updates etc all point to a future dominated by electronics. Its not really a matter of debate, whaqtever side youre on.

Dave
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Old 21-03-2011, 11:36   #113
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Some want want to refer back to this discussion

ECS Vs. ECDIS

Cruisers do not use ECDIS on their vessels.

Unless we do use ECDIS, some of us are still required to carry paper publications including charts.
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Old 21-03-2011, 11:44   #114
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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On the other hand, can you walk onto a boat that uses paper charts and guarantee that they are current (most are years out of date) and that they won't catch on fire in a lightening strike or be destroyed by an errant wave crashing through a window?

The key is having multiple sources to mitigate loss of function. I just think that having multiple sources of electronic navigation provides better backup and usability than getting paper involved in any way. I believe that started happening in a practical way late in 2010.
Jeff

I keep finding errors on the electronic charts that I use; errors that are not on the paper charts.

How many sailors buy the upgrades for their electronic charts?
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Old 21-03-2011, 11:49   #115
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Jeff

I keep finding errors on the electronic charts that I use; errors that are not on the paper charts.
Specific example, please?
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Old 21-03-2011, 11:53   #116
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Specific example, please?
The port bifurcation day beacon on Atkins Reef, Trincomali Channel, Gulf Islands is shown as a starboard lateral daybeacon.

The military exercise area WK (Whiskey Kilo) south of Victoria BC is shown as a wreck.
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Old 21-03-2011, 12:46   #117
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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UNfortunately Don150, while you might see the world that way, its not the way humans work,
ALL I'M SAYING IS OVER DEPENDANCE ON ELECTRONICS IS DANGEROUS. Humans are lazy! Those pilots had extensive training and were tought NOT to ignore their other inputs (paper, or non electronic forms of flying) YET THEY DID. They ignored the fact that the ocean was coming at them at 700 MPH and believed their electronics. I AM NOT SAYING DO NOT USE ELECTRONICS, just be aware that they can be wrong. Place a stereo speaker next to your flux gate transmitter and see what it does to your compass heading. You get great music, but you end up aground. Everything can look right and be wrong.
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Old 21-03-2011, 12:51   #118
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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I feel like this development by the FAA is quite disrespectful of passenger safety. The cost of paper charts is hardly astronomical compared to other airline expenses, and provides a margin of safety in many possible situations. (snip)
If they had been using paper charts, this situation would never have come this close to disaster.

Same story with many obstructions: rocks, pilings, shoals.

Many GPS chartplotter users assume that the charts are accurate, and fail to give obstructions the wide berth they deserve, resulting in many "But the GPS says" moments.
It's not about expense, it's about being current. The reality is that peopel aren't going ot replace their charts or necessarily update the info.

Also, if they had been using paper charts, sans GPS, they might know even less about where they are relative to potential dangers.

These days, the GPS can tell which end of my little house I'm in. Let's get real.
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Old 21-03-2011, 12:58   #119
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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ALL I'M SAYING IS OVER DEPENDANCE ON ELECTRONICS IS DANGEROUS.
well its not what you said, you used the word "guarantee"

In all this debate, lets not denigrate the users of electronics, becuase I use one particular piece of electronics does not make me a better or worse sailer, nor does it " dumb me down". I retain the ability to "look out the window".

The fact is that dumbasses will be dumbasses whatever navigation systems they use, I used to instruct, Ive seen loads of stupid paper charts mistakes too.

Im a fan of "traditional " nav , I can use a sextant, I like paper, I can even do lunar distances. BUT, I can see that it a very short time, electronic charts will dominate the industry, why, cheap, cheap,cheap, convienent, easy to use, and common.

paper charts are expensive to produce, hard to distribute and increasily the underlying survey data is digital anyway. We are in a transistion phase where paper is still available as many hydrographic offices have not finished the full transistion to vector databases. Once that happens, there no future in paper.

Standards bodies , IMO etc, will follow the herd, they have no choice.

we, as lesiure boaters will just tag along behind, taking whatever digital crumbs fall our way.


Debating the pros and cons,on the basis of potential electronic failures is meaningless, equally the "electronics make you dumb" is a ridiculous
argument.


Quote:
Place a stereo speaker next to your flux gate transmitter and see what it does to your compass heading.
or put a fool or the helm, both are equally bad things, neither are commonly done and most people never have the problem, your issue??
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Old 21-03-2011, 16:21   #120
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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I personally feel that at the end of 2010 there was a shift away from the usefulness of paper charts on boats. Perhaps if you're cruising across oceans, paper might still be useful. But for the large bulk of cruisers who stay along and near coastlines, I believe that using paper charts adds more risk and danger than throwing them off the boat. I reached this conclusion after visiting 20 boats in a row who had paper charts that were more than 5 years old. The electronic charts on most of my devices are weeks-to-months old.

Yes, I understand the issues (I'm a software and hardware developer). Yes, I know about lightening and the need for redundancy.

I also know that my 4 smartphones, 2 pads (soon to be 3), and 4 laptops will all show my position on charts if there is GPS available. If every GPS satellite falls out of the sky, I'll still be able to view all charts on my electronics and perform DR. It just won't show me where I am by itself. In other words, I'll be in the exact situation I am with paper charts even when every GPS satellite is working perfectly. Of course, many of the buoys and shoaling features on my paper charts would have been out-of-date.

Power backups provide enough reserve power for me to pilot with my iPhone for 1,000 nm (probably more) assuming I lose all engine provided power which is quite unlikely. New Trent makes some fantastic iOS power devices.

I know some people will feel this is crazy. I'm not advocating it for everyone or telling anyone to stop using paper. You'll come to that realization on your own much as most cruisers stopped carrying sextants a decade ago.

Since January, the few passages I've made have been sans-paper. And I'm loving it.
Yes I thank paper charts should be keep for a backup just incase of the net being hacked you still will have some thing to chart by.
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