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Old 11-03-2011, 13:10   #76
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Maybe so in air space but not underwater. Underwater formations change and once one is out of the US/Canada and other advanced countries, even the paper charts are questionable and out dated. Then that has to be transfered to electronic w/possible errors. Nautical charts need to be updated and buoys maintained to be "advanced". e.g. 50º 03.950 N x 124º 49.025W 6' below the surface at 8' high tide. Google Maps This unmarked one cost me hours of labor, And the wife refuses to go on anymore long (more then a weekend) voyages.

As I said above "In time, until things become more advanced or regulated!"
Well, I did mention understanding the technology.

Things like cell phone towers can and do pop up essentially overnight. Running into one is a Really Bad Idea. They don't always show up on paper or electronic revisions before they are built, but they tend to show up on electronic updates months before new paper charts are required. No technology negates the need to look out the window every now and then.

How do you suppose paper charts are produced nowadays? It's not an intrepid explorer with a set of colored pencils! If there are any data transfer issues, it's probably due to a faulty printer.

Poor or lacking data is just that. Once data become available, it's certainly easier to update electronic rather than paper versions. I don't think the question is "are there perfect electronic data for every part of the planet?," but rather "are electronic data at least as good as any other option?"

I'm not sure what you're trying to assert with the Google Map link. Is that on paper charts but not on electronic charts? Pretending that's a really tall rock, and even assuming it's not on paper sectionals, if you were to fly into it you'd be found negligent under FAR 91.103 ("Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight"), as knowledge of it's existence is clearly "available." (You might get a freebie if you could demonstrate that you didn't know about Google Maps so that wasn't "available" to you. I wouldn't want to try!)
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Old 11-03-2011, 14:14   #77
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

On the google map, that little white spot in the center is a submerged rock that does not have a float or marker of any kind. And unless one really zooms in on the CP the depth doesn't show up. It's a 1/4 mile off the beach and according to the locals, it gets hit a lot.

Flying, I'm not sure how many submerged/floating rocks there are but I am sure, one hit by a plane, would cause the FAA to get a marker on it. Or at least a little red box on the charts that says "Warning; Navigational Hazard". I was tempted to sue the CCG for no marker but that would cost me more then the repairs.

And even with the depth alarm the rock jettisons up too fast to react. This is just one example of nautical charts that would hold up the progress of electronic charts, mostly due to the lack of accurate information, and this was in Canada. I can imagine relying on electronic charts somewhere in the S. Pac. around PNG or PI.

To date, I do use my CP a lot but since this incident, if I'm in an area I don't know I go slow and keep my eye glued to the chart/CP on (sometimes) full magnification. I doubt one has to do that in a plane.

I like the idea of electronic charts! BUT I don't trust them 100%. It's too EZ to become languor while cruising. Its a completely different environment then flying.
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Old 11-03-2011, 14:47   #78
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I only potter up and down a river and pop out of the estuary when feeling brave so am not qualified to comment. But... I like paper navigation (I have a chart plotter on the bulkhead), I like tying sailor knots, using correct terminology, and everything else that is boaty. It is all part of being a sailor. All part of the hobby. I am even trying to learn astro nav with a cheap Ebbco sextant and a really useful website.
Paper navigation is another skill that I enjoy learning.
There, I will shut up now

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Old 11-03-2011, 14:52   #79
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Alex21 View Post
I am even trying to learn astro nav with a cheap Ebbco sextant and a really useful website.
Paper navigation is another skill that I enjoy learning.
There, I will shut up now
I've got to ask. Alex, if you can't see, how do you plan on learning astro nav? Or do you meam learn in an academic sense?
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Old 11-03-2011, 15:09   #80
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Good question. Eyesight is a complex issue. Being blind does not mean no sight. To put you in the picture (you did ask), I have lost all sight in my right eye, nothing, zilch, kaput.
My left eye has very limited vision, I can not see a Snellen chart, let alone read the letters. But, within 1 inch of my eye I can see well. Through a telescope, I can see a fair bit. With the light behind me, I can make out shapes and light and shade. With the light in front of me I can see nothing.
So astro nav? Well I can not see stars at all, but I can see the sun. So with the help of an app on my iPhone (held against my face) I should get an approximate sight Any way, there is always the chart plotter, eh?

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Old 11-03-2011, 15:30   #81
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Nautical charts need to be updated and buoys maintained to be "advanced". e.g. 50º 03.950 N x 124º 49.025W 6' below the surface at 8' high tide.
I do not want to sound like a jerk, but how did you hit a charted rock. It is on the paper charts and on my navionics charts as well?

Many hazards that are outside of areas commonly used by commercial traffic are not marked. None of the ones North of Kinghorn Island are marked either.
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Old 11-03-2011, 15:48   #82
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
On the google map, that little white spot in the center is a submerged rock that does not have a float or marker of any kind. And unless one really zooms in on the CP the depth doesn't show up. It's a 1/4 mile off the beach and according to the locals, it gets hit a lot.

Flying, I'm not sure how many submerged/floating rocks there are but I am sure, one hit by a plane, would cause the FAA to get a marker on it. Or at least a little red box on the charts that says "Warning; Navigational Hazard". I was tempted to sue the CCG for no marker but that would cost me more then the repairs.

Interesting perspective. Pilots are generally discouraged from running into things, whether those things are marked or not, and doing so for any reason can result in forfeiture of flying privileges. Not all of us operate at 30,000 feet, and some of us even fly floats where things like submerged rocks remain a problem. As I pointed out earlier, we are required to use all available information, which includes things like looking out the window and taking cues from the local environment. I simply cannot imagine a circumstance under which hitting an immovable object in any form of conveyance - plane, boat, car, or golf cart - is grounds for denial of responsibility, much less a lawsuit.

Nothing.
Is.
A.
Substitute.

Looking.
Out.
The.
Window.
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Old 11-03-2011, 16:02   #83
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I'm doing an inside passage trip this summer, from Olympia WA to Prince Rupert, maybe to Ketchikan (so I can say I've sailed to Alaska), over to the Queen Charlottes, and back home.

My buddy and I are both computer geeks and own a lot of hardware already. On the trip we'll have two iPhones with the complete Navionics charts, two laptops with a GPS, OpenCPN Garmin Homport, and all the relevant electronic charts, and an iPad with Navionics on it. To power it (and other stuff) we have a 1000W Honda generator, and the diesel Yanmar, and a big battery bank, plus all the right cords to charge all the gadgets off any source. One of the iPhones will be charged, in the a ditch bag, with extra external batteries.

Everyone says "bring paper charts!" And it sounds like the smart thing to do. However, a complete set of paper charts for everywhere I want to go is well over $1300. Even a very basic set would be ~$600.

Right now I'm inclined to buy a few large-scale charts to cover the void from Port McNiel to Bella Bella, and from there to Prince Rupert, one or two charts for the Charlottes, and leave it at that.

Exhaustive paper charts seem like a huge, quickly-depreciating expense, to mitigate a phantom risk. It's a well-trafficked route, my whereabouts will be known, I have lots of time to wait for weather, I have a fail-safe nav device in the ditch bag, and I'll always know how to get to the nearest city / town / settlement. In the insanely improbable scenario that I lose all my gadgets (and am not also dead), I can use my books, the few paper charts, and my brain to limp somewhere for repairs.

If I was crossing an ocean, going somewhere totally foreign to me, or I didn't speak the native language (my Canadian is pretty good!), or I couldn't wait for good weather, or I didn't have all the electronics I have, I might think differently, but to me this seems like a very safe plan for this trip.

If anyone thinks this is crazy, please let me know what I'm missing. I do really value all the opinions on here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I still see no reason why you cannot have both.
For me the reason is $$$$.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post
Power backups provide enough reserve power for me to pilot with my iPhone for 1,000 nm (probably more) assuming I lose all engine provided power which is quite unlikely. New Trent makes some fantastic iOS power devices.
The New Trent iPhone power pack really is phenomenal. I can ran Navionics for 10 hours a day, for two days, before the phone's battery dips below 100%. Plug it in when I got to bed and it's fully charged 6 hours later.
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Old 11-03-2011, 18:04   #84
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I do not want to sound like a jerk, but how did you hit a charted rock. It is on the paper charts and on my navionics charts as well?

Many hazards that are outside of areas commonly used by commercial traffic are not marked. None of the ones North of Kinghorn Island are marked either.
The rock was 6'6" below the surface. My draft is 7'. And I had the wife aboard with her mouth running off, & pointing, lookie there!
If the tide had been in a bit more or a nice swell I would have missed it completely.

Quote:
"Show me a sailor that has not run aground, and I'll show you a sailor that has barely left the dock"
I would dare not say that with a plane. Just google "running aground".

So, I guess 99% of us are idiots, you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustymc
I simply cannot imagine a circumstance under which hitting an immovable object in any form of conveyance - plane, boat, car, or golf cart - is grounds for denial of responsibility, much less a lawsuit.

.
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Old 11-03-2011, 18:05   #85
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I love paper charts and will continue using them (and collecting them). I just wish that we could get all of the paper based stuff as tiffs (or whatever prints best) and then keep it and print just the ones we need for our next passage.

We have the NZ charts and the US ones, but there are vast areas where the UK and French charts are best, and the Russian ones too!

As it is I cannot afford all the paper charts I would like to have ;-(

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Old 11-03-2011, 19:12   #86
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Has anyone had a first-hand experience - no hearsay - where a lightening strike hit and untethered, somewhat protected mobile electronics became un-operational?

Yes our boat was hit last July and even items not connected "tethered" were fried. I lost an iPod, Garmin GPS MAP176, Garmin 76 and Magellan hand held that was wrapped in tin foil, in a zip lock bag, and inside my ditch bag. The other items were all in the chart table only inches from the ships panel but none plugged in. They all had charged batteries in them though. I figured out about two months ago that if I put the batteries in and take them out of my GPSMAP 176 it will occasionally fire up but I can't get satellite reception and many functions don't work.

The few on-board items that randomly survived the strike, like the tachometer, died within a few weeks. I was out sailing the next day without a motor or electronics cause that's what sailboats do but I bought new electronics quickly because I realized that I like my electronics... I still like paper & keep it on-board but find little use for it unless I am doing a DR back up due to conditions. I do now pull out the paper when it looks like lightning, something I did not do in the past. I also now have a true metal box to keep as a Faraday cage.

My boat neighbor two years ago has his Tacktick stuff fried even though it runs off solar and is not connected and he like me lost almost everything.

My HH VHF survived but was dead a month later and considering it was less than a year old I doubt it was a coincidence. Neither I nor my cell phone were on-board but I don't think I would have wanted to be. If we had been sailing our lone piece of safety gear would have beena hand held VHF and possibly, don't really know because I shipped it out for a re-build after the strike, the EPIRB. Even the nav lights were toast..

I did also have an ASUS Netbook on-board that lost the wi-fi functionality but other than that it still ran. The hard drive ceased operation though about two weeks later and because of the price I just bought a new one, fixing it wold have cost more. I suspect like a lot of things the hard drive crash may have had something to to with the lightning but can't say for sure. I do know the wi-fi was working just the day before because I had used it on the mooring.

I have even heard some lightning "experts" say it can affect the compass but when swung a few weeks later ours still matched the previous deviation card.

An old timer had told me wrapping stuff in tin foil would protect it. I now know that tinfoil is not a Faraday cage..
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Old 11-03-2011, 21:05   #87
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Arch Stanton View Post

Everyone says "bring paper charts!" And it sounds like the smart thing to do. However, a complete set of paper charts for everywhere I want to go is well over $1300. Even a very basic set would be ~$600.

Right now I'm inclined to buy a few large-scale charts to cover the void from Port McNiel to Bella Bella, and from there to Prince Rupert, one or two charts for the Charlottes, and leave it at that.

Exhaustive paper charts seem like a huge, quickly-depreciating expense, to mitigate a phantom risk. It's a well-trafficked route, my whereabouts will be known, I have lots of time to wait for weather, I have a fail-safe nav device in the ditch bag, and I'll always know how to get to the nearest city / town / settlement. In the insanely improbable scenario that I lose all my gadgets (and am not also dead), I can use my books, the few paper charts, and my brain to limp somewhere for repairs.

If I was crossing an ocean, going somewhere totally foreign to me, or I didn't speak the native language (my Canadian is pretty good!), or I couldn't wait for good weather, or I didn't have all the electronics I have, I might think differently, but to me this seems like a very safe plan for this trip.

If anyone thinks this is crazy, please let me know what I'm missing. I do really value all the opinions on here.




For me the reason is $$$$.


Here is the reason

Quote:
Am I required by law to carry CHS charts? What are the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations of the Canada Shipping Act?
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage requirements are listed in the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 of the Canada Shipping Act.

CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations. CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances. CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS). CHS raster charts meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.

For further information on which charts meet the official requirements, please see our CHS Official Products and CHS Licensed Manufacturers.
http://www.charts.gc.ca/help-aide/faq-eng.asp#cq1

I am assuming you do not have a ECDIS.
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Old 11-03-2011, 21:08   #88
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post

So, I guess 99% of us are idiots, you think?

.
In Sailing Directions, they advise that Boat Passage requires local knowledge; it is true.

$4500 damage.
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Old 11-03-2011, 21:35   #89
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Here is the reason

CHS - Frequently Asked Questions - General

I am assuming you do not have a ECDIS.
(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

(a) the location and character of charted

(i) shipping routes,

(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and

(iii) navigational hazards; and

(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
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Old 11-03-2011, 22:16   #90
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

(a) the location and character of charted

(i) shipping routes,

(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and

(iii) navigational hazards; and

(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
Big if.
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