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Old 10-03-2011, 18:55   #61
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Any piece of electronics may, and will, fail. Is it not a good safety measure to have paper charts onboard even if we envision something electronic as the primary means?

As soon as I find a good tablet/chart combo, I will get mine. BTW not going to throw my paper charts overboard either!

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Old 11-03-2011, 02:57   #62
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

While I agree with paper charts for backup. Ive never seen recently anyone do any sort of long distance coastal run, carrying charts for all the coastlines. Say a run from Dover to Gibraltor. Thats requires dozens and dozens of charts. Yes people carry large scale planning charts and maybe a few of their "usual" sailing ground. But thats all.

Its all very well for "weekend warriors" to say , I still use paper charts ,cause sure they need 2 or three, its a big difference if you travel any distance. Here electronics ( and the odd pirated copy) rule supreme.

Dave
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:16   #63
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Thought some of you guys may find this interesting as a possible 'Good to know" factor...
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:06   #64
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Wow. I'm going to buy me some pencils
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Old 11-03-2011, 09:42   #65
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Thought some of you guys may find this interesting as a possible 'Good to know" factor...
Adrift is a great read.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:13   #66
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Wow. I'm going to buy me some pecils
The true art of sailing..... improvisation....
Its like the first boat I ever owned... an old wooden Magyar 7 bilgekeeler...
Spent 18mths putting her back together... then moved her from the yard at Hurst at the W end of the Solent to Poole.. she sailed ok but tthe sails that had come with her were limited and I only had the main and #2 n 3 jib...
Winds were around F4 and she was a bit slow so I started playing... I stuck the #3 on the inner stay to help... bad idea.. it just robbed the Headsail...
Back to the cockpit for a smoke and a think... Hmmmm the #2's quite high cut... I wonder... back to the bow and drop the headsail and reverse it..
Bingo... I had a Yankee jib and we were flying...
Boy... I was so pleased with myself it was orgasmic...
Anyway... come to Poole Harbour entrance and the chain ferry... after running down from Old Harry with a beaut evening SW'ly coming down from the Purbecks, we musta been doing 7kts (Basically a speedboat chined hull with keels) as we passed one of the RYC types in his lovely 32ft Nicholson...
The the guy looked over and burst out laughing...
"What Bloody rig do you call that..."

Me... "Itsa.. goes a bloody sight faster than yours rig..."
Stuck with it to.. for the 2 1/2yrs I owned the boat
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:16   #67
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

A simple protractor can work.

The astrolabe was used in medieval navigation, especially by the Arabs. Tradition says that Columbus used one to measure the altitude of the heavenly bodies; however, some believe that he employed a compass and common quadrant.


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Old 11-03-2011, 10:30   #68
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Those ancient Greeks were clever guys:
Astrolabe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think though, it was a long time before anyone risked going outside of view of land or at least known currents, on purpose that is. Columbus always seemed to think he was somewhere other then where he was; India, China and Japan. Of course that isn't a comment on his navigation skills so much as the fact that noone knew where this stuff was if you travelled west. I wonder if they found the idea of undiscovered worlds romantic or just scarey. When I was a child every creek was an undiscovered land but it's hard to maintain the illusion with sattelites peppering the skies.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:37   #69
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

ENCs will replace paper charts and ECDIS is under carriage requirement for certain types of SOLAS vessels.
Additionally under SOLAS V Regulation 2 a database from what a chart or book was derived can be used as equivalent to their paper versions. Although I believe that paper charts and paper books will never disappear totally from board I think it is only a question of time when the electronic versions (chart/book) will "take over the command".
The FAA decision will increase the pressure to the maritime organisations to take other media and distribution ways than the established into consideration.
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:46   #70
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Although I believe that paper charts and paper books will never disappear totally from board I think it is only a question of time when the electronic versions (chart/book) will "take over the command".
The FAA decision will increase the pressure to the maritime organisations to take other media and distribution ways than the established into consideration.
Tne recreational and small boat community may be waiting a long time. An ECDIS is huge and expensive.

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Old 11-03-2011, 10:49   #71
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

That's what I said, it is only a question of time.
Remember your cell phone.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:23   #72
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

The major difference between Aeronautical and Marine environments are the hidden dangers a boat has to be aware of. For an airplane can see great distances all around it most of the time. Where as a boat can only see the upper half in the same weather conditions, leaving the other half to be under question in unfamiliar waters. A plane can go higher but a boat has to stay on the same plain.

It's the line of sight that makes the big difference. Imagine wading waste deep in a piranha swamp compared to flying over tree tops. Only out in the deep sea can a sailor feel relaxed away from the helm much like a pilot on a long flight.

Coming into port takes very little time for a pilot and he can usually see where he's going 360º X 360º. For a boat Captain it may take hours to days for him to reach port from an open sea.

How many planes does one hear of running into something compared to boats. Planes are also required to submit a flight plan, boats can just wonder.

In time, until things become more advanced or regulated!
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Old 11-03-2011, 12:07   #73
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
While I agree with paper charts for backup. Ive never seen recently anyone do any sort of long distance coastal run, carrying charts for all the coastlines. Say a run from Dover to Gibraltor. Thats requires dozens and dozens of charts. Yes people carry large scale planning charts and maybe a few of their "usual" sailing ground. But thats all.

Its all very well for "weekend warriors" to say , I still use paper charts ,cause sure they need 2 or three, its a big difference if you travel any distance. Here electronics ( and the odd pirated copy) rule supreme.

Dave
Well, I have about $600 worth of chart books covering the ICW and near-shore from New York Harbor to Mobile, Al.
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Old 11-03-2011, 12:11   #74
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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The major difference between Aeronautical and Marine environments are the hidden dangers a boat has to be aware of. For an airplane can see great distances all around it most of the time.
And those are NOT the times when GPS has changed the way we fly.

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Where as a boat can only see the upper half in the same weather conditions, leaving the other half to be under question in unfamiliar waters. A plane can go higher but a boat has to stay on the same plain.
Only for so long - those things run out of gas, and they don't really heave to! Eventually you have to land, and that's where GPS has changed things.

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Coming into port takes very little time for a pilot and he can usually see where he's going 360º X 360º. For a boat Captain it may take hours to days for him to reach port from an open sea.
That's because there's an order of magnitude between the safe maneuvering speeds of boats and planes. Screw up in a boat and you whack into earth in a generally massive structure at around 10 knots. Screw up in an airplane, and you find solidity at 100 knots - in a pile of recycled beercans! (My first airplane - a 2-seater - cruised at 95KT, landed at about 45KT, and weighed 800 pounds, for comparison to the typical boat.)

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How many planes does one hear of running into something compared to boats.
How many boats kill everyone aboard when they ground unexpectedly?

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Planes are also required to submit a flight plan, boats can just wonder.
Absolutely false.

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In time, until things become more advanced or regulated!
The technology is sufficiently advanced. It's people that refuse to learn or accept it. And I'm not at all suggesting that there's any particular reason to accept the technology - stick with paper if it makes you feel better. Just please don't make scary claims without understanding the technology.

Having GPS/electronic maps in an airplane as you putz around on a nice day is convenient. Having GPS/WAAS access in lieu of ILS has changed the way we fly - we can safely get into more airports in worse weather with less and cheaper equipment aboard and less training, and there are many fewer weather-related accidents than before GPS. There are also fewer incidents of CFIT - Controlled Fight Into Terrain - than without GPS. That immediate and detailed situational awareness is the power of the technology, and it's available to sailors willing to learn it. It will also happily kill you if you refuse to learn the limitations - just like any other aid to navigation.
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Old 11-03-2011, 13:36   #75
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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The technology is sufficiently advanced.
Maybe so in air space but not underwater. Underwater formations change and once one is out of the US/Canada and other advanced countries, even the paper charts are questionable and out dated. Then that has to be transfered to electronic w/possible errors. Nautical charts need to be updated and buoys maintained to be "advanced". e.g. 50º 03.950 N x 124º 49.025W 6' below the surface at 8' high tide. Google Maps This unmarked one cost me hours of labor, And the wife refuses to go on anymore long (more then a weekend) voyages.

As I said above "In time, until things become more advanced or regulated!"
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