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Old 02-03-2011, 12:37   #46
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
The FAA stopped requiring paper sectionals several years ago. If you've flown in the last 8 years or so (lacking company policy, possibly written by some of the folks in this thread!) you've flown without a chart. If you've flown in IMC the last 5 years or so you may have trusted your life to GPS and GPS alone. If you fly in Alaska you trust your life to GPS and GPS alone most every day. There are fewer accidents in more hours of flying in worse weather, but I'm sure that's just a fad and we'll all be scud-running down rivers (stay right, please!) again any day now.
With the avionics in use today if your electronic charts are gone due to some failure or other your in deeper Sh*t than paper charts will get you out of. The best use for paper charts at that time is to sit on them, you may have to use your floatation device.
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Old 02-03-2011, 14:15   #47
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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The best use for paper charts at that time is to sit on them, you may have to use your floatation device.
It's more about the planning you do before any trip. I plot a lot of course electronic and print 8.5 by 11 pages fro the cockpit. It helps the Admiral know where she is and if I need to alter a course or pilot an entrance it is something to hang on to. Because I plotted it it means I thought about it at least for a while.

The take off in the boat and spin the compass to decide where you are going stuff is bound to be a problem. You need to plan the trip and plot a course and think about the weather all before you leave not on the way. Electronic or otherwise it gets your head on straight.

Without anything it's not easy to pop open some charts and find yourself without a GPS. If you maintain a course so a DR might actually get you some place desirable you find you don't have many navigation problems. Even just day sailing I go some place I mean to. It may be familiar but it is easy to forget about where you are and do something pretty stupid. These would represent my own personal worst navigation errors. Using the correct chart on the wrong river has interesting results just before the OMG moment.
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Old 02-03-2011, 14:34   #48
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Paul,
I did say avionics, it infered aircraft. Bouncing back to a previous post, noted in my quote.
I agree, planning on paper maps should be done, and it's fun.
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Old 02-03-2011, 15:14   #49
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Me, I use both, keep paper charts updated (free), the Navionics card is close to $300 to update.
At work, have 3 independent ECDIS sets, 28" screen, all singing and dancing, bells and all. Our Class Society (DNV) have exempted the boat from having to carry paper charts, but my self and the 3 mates decided to keep the full paper chart folio's going for our areas's of work. Found it much easier to plan routes on the paper charts, and going in somewhere tight, I can carry the folded chart out on to the bridge wing, last time I tired that with the ECDIS I really put my back out
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Old 02-03-2011, 18:04   #50
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
I find it incredibly amusing that so many of you obviously have no idea how to use your chartplotters, don't understand how the things do, could, or should work, so simply blame the equipment.
It's so true. All the 'this guy blindly following the gps position on the chartplotter' and 'never taking bearings' arguements have got nothing to do with whether the chart is electronic or not.

Someone who is lax with their navigation, will be so whether the chart is printed on paper or displayed on a screen. It's not the medium that is at fault.
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Old 02-03-2011, 18:13   #51
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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You're honestly going to tell me that even 10% of the people running chart plotters are keeping a DR up? For set/drift calculations the point is that you don't know when you'll need DR so there's no way to determine that in advance.
That's the thing, you don't need to keep a DR because the plotter will do that for you. When you loose positioning, you enter speed and course changes and the plotter plots your position as DR in real time. You already know set/drift from the track before your positioning failed. The plotter keeps an automated logbook that can include any sensor value you want incl. heading, COG, STW, SOG etc. Stuff you have to do manually without the computer.

I'm not very surprised that some people go out to sea thinking their little screen will always tell them where they are etc. What surprises me much more is cruisers that have been out there for 10 years or more and don't know how to take a bearing using the radar, or can't find the distance to a radar target, don't even know what the radar cursor is, can only start their engine by turning the key, think that using a Cunningham is foul play, don't know which way to turn the wheel when going in reverse, think it's normal to just push the VHF coax cable in a connector without soldering it, bleed the fuel lines by opening the drain under the bowl of the filter, don't know that the white sector of a tri-color masthead light is supposed to face aft etc. etc. The sad thing is that I've seen all of that.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 02-03-2011, 18:16   #52
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by nigel1 View Post
Me, I use both, keep paper charts updated (free), the Navionics card is close to $300 to update.
So, somebody updates your paper charts for you for free? I think you update them yourself, right? In that case, you can do the same thing for your electronic charts, absolutely free.

cheers,
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Old 02-03-2011, 18:25   #53
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Except when the electronic chart was scanned from an extant paper chart.

What a silly argument, folks! If you like plotting positions (taken from your GPS) onto paper, then go for it. If you like to have that done automatically on an electronic chart that claims to be accurate, then go for it. But for chrissake, keep your eyeballs going out in the real world, look at your other sources of information (depthsounder, radar, AIS etc) and amalgamate ALL the info into your decision making process.

And for those of you who are offshore wannabees, don't think that charts for many third world areas are: accurate, current or even available. Don't assume that nav-aids will be where they are shown, even on the chart you bought yesterday. Don't think that they will be lit as described. Don't think that depths are as shown. It often just ain't so. For instance, outside of Port Vila, we have NEVER seen a lit nav-aid in Vanuatu, despite there being quite a few shown on the charts. In Fiji, in one area we transited 6 out of 7 charted reef markers were missing, and they are not numbered, so that there was no way to determine which the remaining one was. The chart was not corrected to WGS84, nor was it correct in the relationships between charted features. In the Solomons, despite paying a 100 Solomon dollar "light fee", there was not one single lit nav aid (this a few years back admittedly). And so on. This sort of thing is true whether your charts are on paper, silicon or whatever medium you wish. We often say "charts are for planning and dreaming, eyeballs are for piloting when close to lumpy things".

But, it's all good fun...!

Cheers,

Jim

I am only to this post (#16) but had to stop to say I think Jim might have a point or two.

PS:
In the part of the US of A that I live in the plotter is pretty good but last weekend my paper chart had the same markers listed as my plotter and we came in to an area after dark. The paper chart was abandoned on the salon table. The plotter showed us passing directly through two green markers that were 50ft to the left.

Thank goodness for battery flashlights (and depth instrument). They even illuminated the markers that had the numbers missing and so were not reflective at all. I don't think a oil lamp would have made that three miles very safe either.

Amazing how fast a marker comes up at 5kts.

Thank goodness for some control and delivery of electrons.
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Old 02-03-2011, 18:42   #54
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
That's the thing, you don't need to keep a DR because the plotter will do that for you. When you loose positioning, you enter speed and course changes and the plotter plots your position as DR in real time. You already know set/drift from the track before your positioning failed. The plotter keeps an automated logbook that can include any sensor value you want incl. heading, COG, STW, SOG etc. Stuff you have to do manually without the computer.

I'm not very surprised that some people go out to sea thinking their little screen will always tell them where they are etc. What surprises me much more is cruisers that have been out there for 10 years or more and don't know how to take a bearing using the radar, or can't find the distance to a radar target, don't even know what the radar cursor is, can only start their engine by turning the key, think that using a Cunningham is foul play, don't know which way to turn the wheel when going in reverse, think it's normal to just push the VHF coax cable in a connector without soldering it, bleed the fuel lines by opening the drain under the bowl of the filter, don't know that the white sector of a tri-color masthead light is supposed to face aft etc. etc. The sad thing is that I've seen all of that.

cheers,
Nick.
And that was just on my boat... wait till you hear about the others...
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Old 02-03-2011, 19:00   #55
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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So no "I knew a guy" stories. Direct "this happened to me" stories only so the evidence can be examined and questioned.
I got one for ya.

Actually for ya, not against ya.
8-28-09
Anclote (W FL) bearing 300 yards NW.
Squall line. Wind 30kn with "Tampa-type" lightening. Blinding rain.
I was motoring toward Anclote sand bar (N end) to drop the hook till it passed over.
Big Flash
I was shocked by the wheel and jolted backward in shock (the other kind )
I have no idea where the bolt actually left the water but living here I know what blinding white light with instantaneous thunder is.

All electronics, electrics, phones etc etc. fine and dandy.

Me - a little shaken as some of my circuits were shorted out. A couple of beers and a nice dinner on a friends huge power cat helped.
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Old 02-03-2011, 19:05   #56
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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I print out all my directions online on pieces of paper before I get in the car. I look at the maps and often enough find that the directions provided to me aren't really the best (google avoids the 74 when headed north, for all you Orange County people).


.
LOL.
To and from Miami this year the navigator told me it was time for a new one as some stuff was just too old. 10yr old Rand McNally thing. I have always had one in my vehicle. She is right. I love my navigator.

If you google map my address and follow the directions it will take you down the block on the left.
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Old 02-03-2011, 19:08   #57
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I've never had a direct hit but have had sheet lightening blow my electrics...
did not have a mobile phone at the time... they were more like house bricks back then.. but my nav lights/instruments, vhf, h/h GPS and tiller pilot went..
Pantaneaus sorted things out for me pretty quick tho'... this was Majorca..'96..
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Old 02-03-2011, 19:32   #58
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I've had an experience of being hit by lightning. In a marina. destroyed some, but not all of the electronics on board. I can't remember the specifics of what went and what was OK. But 2 phones and at least 1 laptop were OK afterwards.

It's all about backup / redundancy. Nowadays with I-phone & android phones abounding and $50 usb gps pucks, multiple backup is easily achieved.
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Old 02-03-2011, 20:38   #59
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

IMO it's all good. I like having the chart plotter at the helm. But, I also have a chart book next to me in the cockpit too and a large scale chart on the table in the cabin. They all come in handy and can serve as backups should the chartplotter fail. I like having a chartbook nearby because I can get the big picture with glance and also take a quick look at the future plans or destinations easier than navigating around the chart plotter. Same holds true for the large scale chart. I can get the big picture everytime I go down into the cabin for a drink or a bite to eat. I'll also plot a lat and lon on it on occassion. The chartplotter comes in handy for use as quick and easy anchor alarm. I also like all the data SOG etc... that is availible from it when under way. They are all tools that have their various uses. But, having made my living repairing electronic equiptment I know electronics can fail sometimes when you need them most. A drop of moisture on a trace in a connector and so much for that! So if you really don't want to carry paper I would make sure you have some redundent electronic system and not rely on just one unit and don't forget the chargers too.
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Old 04-03-2011, 08:32   #60
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Sadly, more paper goes by the board....



Quote:
After 32 years of serving the book and charting needs of the boating community in Newport, R.I., and around the world, Armchair Sailor Bookstore announced it will be closing its doors at the end of April.
"Times have changed and the past few years been very difficult for independent specialty bookstore retailers," said John Mann, owner of Armchair Sailor, a subsidiary of Bluewater Books and Charts in Fort Lauderdale, in a statement. "Customers today often opt for the convenience of online purchasing for their reading materials and the explosion of e-book readers has dramatically affected hard-copy book sales.

Well-known R.I. nautical bookstore will close in April
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