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Old 02-03-2011, 09:56   #31
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
This old chestnut.

Each to his own preference, but I do think there are a lot of misleading comments that are posted when this topic is discussed. Lets start with the similarities:

Plotting a position derived from GPS, visual fix or sextant can be done on both.
Dead reckoning can be done on both (a chart plottter hooked up to instruments will be far more accurate)
Route planning and route following can be done on both
Annotations can be done on both

In fact, I can't think of anything that you can do on a paper chart that you can't do on an electronic one.

I can think of a few very handy things that you can do on an electronic chart that are a bit tricky on a paper version - Radar and AIS overlays are 2 that spring to mind.

I can appreciate that some are more comforable with handling and reading a paper chart, but I believe that is more a factor of habit and familiarity. I personaly find working on a paper chart slow and tedious and it keeps me down below at the chart table when I perhaps should at the helm taking bearings to see how they compare to the GPS position on the chartplotter in front of me.

I can verify my position far quicker, with a higher expectation of accuracy, from a greater number of independant sources (Radar, depth, GPS position, visual fix to name a few), without leaving the helm.

This to me is far safer than sitting at the chart table with my calipers and protractor.
But all it takes is one lighting strike and all power equipment could be gone. Then it's back to the ole compass, sextant and DR if you're offshore.

When the visibility is bad I catch myself 'navigating blind', especially in dense fog. Motoring, I have to keep my eyes on the compass or CP or I'll find myself going in circles. This is where paper would be useless and electronics saves the day. And paper is a PITA while trying to navigate a narrow rocky channel, in the cockpit of a sailboat, in the wind and rain. e.g. Middle Channel in the San Juans of WA.

My last CP started doing weird stuff, then one day it had me .5 nm off to the East every where I went. I even cut thru a peninsula at one point, so I deep six'd it and bought a new one the same day.

One thing I want to do before heading off again is to get a handheld GPS and keep it wrapped in a static free container in the ditch bag. It seems the past 20 years, electronics has made it very EZ for dummies to go off shore and survive.

I remember my first solo (out of sight of land) trip in 1980 aboard my Cal 2-27. I left San Diego heading for Catalina Is. at about 3 AM. About 5 miles out I ran into a fog, the wind died and there I was, adrift. According to my DR I was SE of the islands. But not knowing what the current was or having any idea when the fog would lift. All I could do was guess where I was going. So, I cranked up the ole Farymann and putted due West until I could see land, and then S. back to SD. A failed trip.

If I had a GPS I could have continued on securely motoring, But I didn't want to be out there searching for an Island in the fog.
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:59   #32
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

When was the last time anyone reading this bought a road atlas? How many 25 year olds know what Rand McNally is or purchased any type of paper map?
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:02   #33
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Del..... thats where a music score sheet holder and clothes pegs comes in handy... fold into required section and an occasional glance is enough to keep you on track... in fog use the sounder... also exercise your memory... you should be able to memorise channel marks etc upto 3+ miles ahead...
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:08   #34
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
But all it takes is one lighting strike and all power equipment could be gone. Then it's back to the ole compass, sextant and DR if you're offshore.
This is such a common come-back about relying on electronics. Here's my challenge - I've given it on multiple forums including some that concentrate on electronics (I'm a software and hardware designer)...

Has anyone had a first-hand experience - no hearsay - where a lightening strike hit and untethered, somewhat protected mobile electronics became un-operational?

I'm especially interested in knowing about a lightening strike where the phone in the person's pocket was destroyed too. I believe it is not possible without killing the person too.

This doesn't take into consideration that you can easily protect mobile electronics from strikes. We always have a phone with all charts in a secure, remote place. When a storm approaches, we protect our mobile electronics in other ways too - the microwave provides a pretty good shield.

So no "I knew a guy" stories. Direct "this happened to me" stories only so the evidence can be examined and questioned. For example, someone told me on another forum last week that they had a phone destroyed by a lightening strike which proved that I'm wrong about this. When questioned, she had put the phone in her pocketbook right below a sink, near the copper pipes. Lightening struck and wiring in the building caught fire. Do you think that copper pipes were a good protected area to be in?
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:15   #35
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post
When was the last time anyone reading this bought a road atlas? How many 25 year olds know what Rand McNally is or purchased any type of paper map?
I print out all my directions online on pieces of paper before I get in the car. I look at the maps and often enough find that the directions provided to me aren't really the best (google avoids the 74 when headed north, for all you Orange County people).

More than once I've been where I needed to on time while I listened to someone else stumble in late blaming it on their onboard navigation system.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:21   #36
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
It's odd to think of but I don't imagine we ever would have heard of someone hitting a rock because they had their nose in a chart and didn't think they needed to look where they were going. Using DR they're going to be taking sitings at least and very likely in learning to navigate it became very clear you look where you are going. It's been said before but the fact that people think with a plotter they don't need to learn anything about navigating is a problem, although you might think that looking where you're going is something you learn when you're crawling!
That's my boiled down problem with chartlotters and the folks who rely on them. 9/10 I can safely bet:

- they are not keeping a DR up (no set/drift or accurate awareness of current)
- they are not taking sightings
- because they're not taking sightings, they're not acutely aware of their surroundings.
- they couldn't find their way through a light list or coast pilot if their lives depended on it.


Every week there is some new story of electronic malfunction or misuse of properly functioning electronics. It allows less experienced mariners to go to sea and provides an illusion of safety.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:49   #37
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Del..... thats where a music score sheet holder and clothes pegs comes in handy... fold into required section and an occasional glance is enough to keep you on track... in fog use the sounder... also exercise your memory... you should be able to memorise channel marks etc upto 3+ miles ahead...
Memorise? Don't chano I'm over 60 now.

The music sheet thingy would be nice until that first big wave. I do keep local chart books in the cockpit with the pages held in place with a clip, but they're getting pretty nasty. Its time for some new ones. The big charts I keep below to qualify the book, which is just a copy of the charts anyway.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:49   #38
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I unfortunately have fallen into forgetting the old ways... For instance when I was a kid in school, math was still done on a slide rule. Now-a-days after using a calculator for the last 30 years, I can't remember how to use (much less FIND) my old slid rule.

Same with Nav... I learned to navigate when LORAN A and RDF were cutting edge stuff. Now-a-days, I MIGHT be able to get a noon shot and EVENTUALLY get a fix +/- 20 NM with my old sextant (If I could find the damn thing).

I do still carry paper... some VERY old paper! Not so much for navigation or plotting but for the wealth of local knowledge that is penciled thereupon. 30 years of it! I also carry an old Garmin.... a PC running Capn' Navigator, a Mac with GPSNavx (and now OpenCPN!) and an iPhone with Navionics. I still use my binocs, and a bearing compass to confirm what the electronics are saying.... But the parallels and dividers are real dusty!
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:56   #39
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post
This is such a common come-back about relying on electronics. Here's my challenge - I've given it on multiple forums including some that concentrate on electronics (I'm a software and hardware designer)...

Has anyone had a first-hand experience - no hearsay - where a lightening strike hit and untethered, somewhat protected mobile electronics became un-operational?

I'm especially interested in knowing about a lightening strike where the phone in the person's pocket was destroyed too. I believe it is not possible without killing the person too.

This doesn't take into consideration that you can easily protect mobile electronics from strikes. We always have a phone with all charts in a secure, remote place. When a storm approaches, we protect our mobile electronics in other ways too - the microwave provides a pretty good shield.

So no "I knew a guy" stories. Direct "this happened to me" stories only so the evidence can be examined and questioned. For example, someone told me on another forum last week that they had a phone destroyed by a lightening strike which proved that I'm wrong about this. When questioned, she had put the phone in her pocketbook right below a sink, near the copper pipes. Lightening struck and wiring in the building caught fire. Do you think that copper pipes were a good protected area to be in?
Just do a search on the forum for lighting strikes. I remember one guy in FL a year or two ago that lost everything.
I use to work with circuit boards. One thing you never did was walk around with one unless it was wrapped in a foil bag. One little static zap and it was gone.
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Old 02-03-2011, 10:57   #40
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

The FAA stopped requiring paper sectionals several years ago. If you've flown in the last 8 years or so (lacking company policy, possibly written by some of the folks in this thread!) you've flown without a chart. If you've flown in IMC the last 5 years or so you may have trusted your life to GPS and GPS alone. If you fly in Alaska you trust your life to GPS and GPS alone most every day. There are fewer accidents in more hours of flying in worse weather, but I'm sure that's just a fad and we'll all be scud-running down rivers (stay right, please!) again any day now.

I find it incredibly amusing that so many of you obviously have no idea how to use your chartplotters, don't understand how the things do, could, or should work, so simply blame the equipment. It's like me picking up a sextant, diddling with the knobs a bit, then declaring the damned thing inoperative because I still have no idea where the hell we are. (Is this damned thing metric er sumthin?)
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:01   #41
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Dustymc
(Is this damned thing metric er sumthin?)
You owe me a new monitor! ROFLMAO!
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:19   #42
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by moggie View Post
doug86,
I fly big jets, we always have paper approach charts clipped to the column or the side panel. We do not rely on memory! Even when we have electronic flight management systems. But I guess we have more responsibilities than a "Private" pilot.
Rgds Moggie
I thought Jeppesen's had not gone out of business yet

(yeah, I know they do electronic also)
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:43   #43
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
But all it takes is one lighting strike and all power equipment could be gone. Then it's back to the ole compass, sextant and DR if you're offshore.
Nope, Then it's, pull out the old laptop under the bunk and fire up the GPS stick and I'm back in business. Always keep a back up to the back up.
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:55   #44
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
I remember one guy in FL a year or two ago that lost everything.
See? It's always "I know a guy" stories.

Nope, no good. Every time I've heard from someone who actually was in a lightening strike and lost things, it was because they were connected or in close proximity to a large channel of current from the strike.
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:26   #45
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I love paper charts because I can see the whole picture of an area, no postage stamp zooming in to read the details.

On coastal paper charts, past notations made of shore or fishing possibilities burn in to me with a clearer perspective that often lead to new discoveries. Warm memories of when those notations were made and the coffee stain stamp of approval are just simply tactile and personal

I know I can navigate with either, but that is not the reason I keep old detailed charts of areas rarely visited.

Sometimes it just boils down to your preference of a favorite book or a Kindle at times?

I still see no reason why you cannot have both.
Ditto. For me, it's a matter of perspective. Chart plotters are useful, but they tend to cause the helmsman to be focused only on the small stretch of water immediately ahead. Now, I know you can zoom in and zoom out, but to me, it's just not the same.
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