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Old 14-06-2011, 06:33   #406
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

[QUOTE=doug86;707841]
A lightening strike that causes a failure of all the electronics will probably destroy all the vital electrical stuff, like house batteries, alternator, starter, radar, bilge pumps. It may also cause hull damage, rig damage etc.
[QUOTE]

Not necessarily, at least not from the accounts I've heard. That's the thing about lightening, it's a bit unpredictable. Sometimes it does nothing, sometimes it fries the gadgets, sometimes it blows throughulls, sometimes it kills everyone instantly.

MARK -- I think I've made it clear before that I am all for modern electronics, I am just not all for them to the exclusion of everything else.

It has been said many times: "The prudent navigator never relies on one method of finding position at sea".
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Old 14-06-2011, 06:59   #407
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
It has been said many times: "The prudent navigator never relies on one method of finding position at sea".
I don't think that happens because the Paper Chartists we have commenting here do NOT use more methods. They decry GPS and Plotters and probably havent used Google Earth, or anything else modern.

Thats my point: They are stuck in an obsolete mind-set. And that's dangerous.

To me its past 'Is Chartplotting safe' to 'lets outlaw Paper'. I think paper is unsafe. At sometime in the future it will be illegal to only have paper, or paper at all.




Thats my opinion.
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Old 14-06-2011, 07:08   #408
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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I don't think that happens because the Paper Chartists we have commenting here do NOT use more methods. They decry GPS and Plotters and probably havent used Google Earth, or anything else modern.

Thats my point: They are stuck in an obsolete mind-set. And that's dangerous.

To me its past 'Is Chartplotting safe' to 'lets outlaw Paper'. I think paper is unsafe. At sometime in the future it will be illegal to only have paper, or paper at all.




Thats my opinion.
My opinion: If you rely on a chartplotter, you are probably NOT taking azimuths off stationary objects (yes, I do), you are probably not checking that the lighted buoy is the same number listed on the paper chart (I always do), you are probably not checking that the light sequence is as marked (yep), and you almost certainly are not keeping a DR plot.

What are you doing? Looking at a tiny little screen.
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Old 14-06-2011, 07:18   #409
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
My opinion: If you rely on a chartplotter, you are probably NOT taking azimuths off stationary objects (yes, I do), you are probably not checking that the lighted buoy is the same number listed on the paper chart (I always do), you are probably not checking that the light sequence is as marked (yep), and you almost certainly are not keeping a DR plot.
Of course I don't.


Quote:
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What are you doing? Looking at a tiny little screen.
Of course I do.


About time you let go the crutch and tried things my way.

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Old 14-06-2011, 07:49   #410
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
I have heard at least a dozen first-hand accounts of lightening strikes among cruisers in recent years. Nearly every one of them ends with the phrase "... fried all the electronics."

That alone militants against relying entirely on chartplotters.
Having had this electronics-versus-paper debate about 30 times, this is always the terminating argument of the "paper" people: lightening.

Using electronics doesn't remove the need to have backup. And multiple backups is pretty easy today given all the different screens you have onboard (phones, pads, and even TV's).

I've talked to multiple boat owners who have experienced a direct lightening strike. In every case, some or all of the built-in electronics were destroyed. In no case did a disconnected phone get damaged at all. In fact, the phones ended up being the way they called for help in every case.

When bad storms are in the area, I often have a phone in my pocket and put one in the microwave for protection. I find it impossible to imagine that the phone in my pocket will attract a big enough voltage spike to damage it in any way that wouldn't also defibrillate me and kill me. And if I'm dead, my wife can use the phone in the microwave as a chartplotter as well as make a call for help.

If you're navigating, you should have backup. Most people who have switched to all electronics have multiple backup electronics in my experience. Few people in the paper camp have full backup sets of paper charts. How come these paper people aren't worried about their 5 year old charts blowing overboard? That's something I've seen happen.
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:06   #411
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Few people in the paper camp have full backup sets of paper charts. How come these paper people aren't worried about their 5 year old charts blowing overboard? That's something I've seen happen.
.... or the can of paint that opened in a locker and destroyed a pile of paper charts.... or the mice that ate paper charts... or the bottle or red wine spilled on the paper charts...

The point is that tragedy can strike paper just as easily as it can electrons; everyone has to have backups, both the paper crowds and the digital crowd. But, how many paper guys carry a spare set of paper charts? Not many.

How many paper guys carry a digital form of backup? Well, for sure every single person who participates in Cruisers Forum does, because to use CF, you gotta have a computer, and a computer can be used to back up paper charts. I'm not saying it's a free backup, but neither would a second set of paper charts be free...
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:32   #412
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
It has been said many times: "The prudent navigator never relies on one method of finding position at sea".
Correct, but paper charts are NOT a method of finding position at sea. Valid methods are: GPS, radar, eyes, clock & sextant, brains etc.

Lightning: the paper chart fanboys would look flabbergasted when that lightning bolt vaporizes their stack of paper charts: GAME OVER

ciao!
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:33   #413
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post
If you're navigating, you should have backup. Most people who have switched to all electronics have multiple backup electronics in my experience. Few people in the paper camp have full backup sets of paper charts. How come these paper people aren't worried about their 5 year old charts blowing overboard? That's something I've seen happen.
Around and around we go.

While it could be that there are some here advocating against chartplotters, I'm not one of them. On the contrary, as the title of the thread suggests, the debate premise is the "death of paper".

I believe in a simple backup for complex systems and to a certain extent, so do you. How many have a windex at the masthead in addition to their wind instruments? How many of you have an emergency tiller?

My depth sounder went screwy a few years back blinking alternately 101' and 3' (or something like that), so after getting it fixed, I rigged up a lead line with marked soundings out of an old shackle for a weight and some spare line. Does that make me crazy of prudent? After all, I'll probably never need it.

And how many of you would be in favor of removing all channel markers and aids to navigation? Your chartplotters make them obsolete. Besides, they're costing the taxpayer a lot of money to maintain. Let's get a poll going; let's find out how much you REALLY trust those gadgets.

And, I don't have a microwave aboard either, so where or where am I going to store that spare GPS?
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:38   #414
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Correct, but paper charts are NOT a method of finding position at sea. Valid methods are: GPS, radar, eyes, clock & sextant, brains etc.

Lightning: the paper chart fanboys would look flabbergasted when that lightning bolt vaporizes their stack of paper charts: GAME OVER

ciao!
Nick.
Don't be disingenuous. Just how good would the clock and sextant (or the GPS sans plotter, for that matter) be without a chart? Not to mention a DR plot.
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:45   #415
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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And how many of you would be in favor of removing all channel markers and aids to navigation?
Prior to all the beefed up homeland security funding, the #1 budget item for the US Coast Guard was aids-to-navigation repair/replacement. It might still be the largest budget item.

Do you have any doubt that all of those buoys will eventually be gone?

How long has it been since you waited in line to cash a check (or deposited one)? In 1980, do you think people would have seen that going away?

Quote:
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And, I don't have a microwave aboard either, so where or where am I going to store that spare GPS?
Get a couple of cans and some insulating material. Or just put the phone/GPS in your pocket.
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:55   #416
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Don't be disingenuous. Just how good would the clock and sextant (or the GPS sans plotter, for that matter) be without a chart? Not to mention a DR plot.
Excuse me, what do you call me?
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Old 14-06-2011, 08:55   #417
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Around and around we go.

While it could be that there are some here advocating against chartplotters, I'm not one of them. On the contrary, as the title of the thread suggests, the debate premise is the "death of paper".

I believe in a simple backup for complex systems and to a certain extent, so do you. How many have a windex at the masthead in addition to their wind instruments? How many of you have an emergency tiller?

My depth sounder went screwy a few years back blinking alternately 101' and 3' (or something like that), so after getting it fixed, I rigged up a lead line with marked soundings out of an old shackle for a weight and some spare line. Does that make me crazy of prudent? After all, I'll probably never need it.
Exactly - the thread title may be a hyperbole; but it is the premise of the OP.

I carry a proper lead line because the depth sounder does not read below my rudder which can be a problem when anchored stern-to; I sue it regularly as well as when I am over a weedy bottom to get the actual depth. It is also handy for checking the offset of the sounder. The emergency tiller is standard on boats and we are required to show folks where it is. I still prefer the windex to the wind instruments, but that is also how I learned.
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Old 14-06-2011, 11:41   #418
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Some humour









A charter bus driver in the Seattle area decided to follow the turn by turn directions exactly. He ignored the large signs warning of low clearance. Oops. The driver was transporting members of Seattle area high school softball team home from a game. Apparently no one received any serious injuries.
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Old 14-06-2011, 13:18   #419
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Only if one is dopy enough to keep the electronics in short supply i.e. one of. Or keep them attached to the boats electricity during the electrical storm.


.
I don't have a dog in this one but mine is hard wired in the "dash" and the Tampa Bay Area is the second most lightening struck area on the planet. Though most don't sail much in the summer as it is too hot with no wind......till the thunder storms roll in in the afternoon.
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Old 14-06-2011, 15:19   #420
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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[citation needed]
CF is not Wikipedia - you can Google and look it up yourself. Or ignore it.
- - - - - - -
MarkJ - "That's my point: They are stuck in an obsolete mind-set. And that's dangerous."

Actually, it just might be the opposite situation - Advanced technology in the hands of somebody that does not or has not a clue how it operates is probably just as dangerous.
- - - - - - -
- - In this thread, the word "chartplotter" is being bandied about and used rather indefinitely. In classical electronic navigation there is computer based navigation systems like "The Cap'n," Nobeltec," "OpenCPN," "Fugawi" and probably a dozen or so more navigation systems that run on PC's or lapbooks, or netbooks, etc. These systems can use Raster Charts or Vector Charts or both that are stored on your hard drive, flash drive, or CD disk.
- - Then there are "Chartplotters" that are exemplified by the the small to large integrated systems mounted on your binacle or in cockpit consoles where charts are on proprietary chips, etc. These are always usually vector based systems. You can include the little portable GPS's like the Garmin GPS76, etc. but the mapping is really marginal when it comes to detail. Although there is usually a way to download more detailed vector maps into these portable units.
- - Personally as an "old fashioned" navigator I like the PC based systems (besides the fact that they and the raster charts are free) that can use and display Raster Charts which are simple scanned copies of old fashioned paper charts. Or you can use the free ENC NOAA vector charts, whichever you fancy.
- - As has been stated a multitude of times, a modern navigator uses all the available modern electronics and classical nav techniques, cross-checking one against the other to arrive at a logical safe course to steer. And if one system "goes down" he has several other systems available. It is rare to find serious cruisers who do not have an assortment of portable GPS's, knot-logs, hand windmeters, bearing binoculars/sighting compass, etc. Failures are few and far between but they always seem to occur when you got your balls in a box on a dark, stormy and overcast cloudy night.
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