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Old 08-06-2011, 08:37   #346
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I'm sure those of you who'll make use of the information already know, and those of you who won't will find fault with it, but I feel compelled to point out yet again that there are two types of image data readily available in Google Earth: Satellite imagery, and georeferenced user-supplied data, primarily in the form of photographs. For example, some random bridge from above and below.



I can't imagine not being able to make use of that sort of information, but my imagination often fails in the face of fundamentalism.

In addition to the built-in content, you can download KML data for just about anything you can imagine. Store | EarthNC seems willing to sell you navigational chart data in KML format for $50, for example.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:07   #347
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Paper charts and paper books are out ---Long live the IPad, Kingle, and small computers aboard. We have paper charts aboard - they are just not paper. The are just displayed as rasters on a computer or Ipad screen. They have not gone away - just like books have not gone away. The cellulose paper has ....

Even so I think there is too mucj reliance on the GPS and the little boat icons - charts are not completely accurate and never will be - paper or otherwise.
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:12   #348
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

It's all good, but it's easy for the technology to become a crutch. Just last week, a friend who is famous for relying on his chartplotter to the exclusion of everything else including his own eyes, insisted that a certain river channel "can't be done without a chartplotter."

Two days later, a friend of mine who does not own a chartplotter and I sailed up said channel by chart alone - no problem. Yes, it required be extremely attentive, but then that is the hallmark of good seamanship, isn't it?
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:29   #349
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustymc View Post
I'm sure those of you who'll make use of the information already know, and those of you who won't will find fault with it, but I feel compelled to point out yet again that there are two types of image data readily available in Google Earth: Satellite imagery, and georeferenced user-supplied data, primarily in the form of photographs. For example, some random bridge from above and below.



I can't imagine not being able to make use of that sort of information, but my imagination often fails in the face of fundamentalism.

In addition to the built-in content, you can download KML data for just about anything you can imagine. Store | EarthNC seems willing to sell you navigational chart data in KML format for $50, for example.
Nothing wrong with your imagination unless you imagine that the KML data sets you refer to are universal (They're not). That's actually not important given the myriad of other chart sources.


My point was (And still is) that the G.E standard imagery is outdated, it was not intended to be used for marine navigation, and it should not be used as such.


By all means use it as a general guide and a source of local information but don't bet your boat by steering by it. Ask your insurance brokers to give you their views.....


James
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Old 08-06-2011, 10:53   #350
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

The crystal clear images above are certainly of use but Fla. waterway charts and guides are abundant. The images you really need are of approaches to places like Nuku Hiva, Bora Bora or the entrance to Cocos Keeling or Richards Bay. I've saved and calibrated most of the places needed for a circumnav and most are not of much use. Many of the GE images are either very old or unclear. Look at the image of Grand Bahama, it's covered in clouds and useless for any kind of charting.
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Old 08-06-2011, 11:06   #351
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Many of the GE images are either very old or unclear. Look at the image of Grand Bahama, it's covered in clouds and useless for any kind of charting.
Thanks for that heads-up.

I just roamed around the area that I sail. East Point on Saturna Island which has many reefs on a chart is obscured by cloud in GE.
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Old 08-06-2011, 12:43   #352
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Some's these arguments are, how can I say politely, missing some of the real issues. Like the guy who tries to navigate up some narrow channel looking only at his chart plotter and not seeing the rock dead ahead of him... An argument for paper charts? like he would have been so much better off trying to steer the boat with a piece of paper and a compass and ruler, still not looking up?

NOAA, I'm sure, long ago stopped drawing charts with pencils. Put a GPS on the mast, calibrate exactly how far below it the depth finder is, hook that all into a data collection computer and let the auto pilot steer through the grid. Adjust measurements with tide station based on timestamps, computer kicks out a chart. Send it to the print shop and you've got the paper version. Do you really think there's something on the version sent to the print shop that wasn't on the one uploaded to the website?

Google Earth collects digital imagery from many source. In my neighborhood I believe they get high res aerial photos from the state DOT, and I don't think the DOT spends much time taking pictures of the water, but they got most of the coastline pretty well covered.

In remote areas, where there's no DOT or any other government with any sort of engineering dept, I think they rely mostly on French SPOT satellite imagery. The SPOT satellites have been in orbit for at least a decade (2 I think) and there resolution is limited. But I think they are still working, and imagery from them should still be as current as the last time they flew over.

I have no idea how Google georeferences there imagery but I've had some experience with photogrammetry dating back 15 years ago and can tell you that back then they were on the cusps of being able to map the hell out of anything in 3D with some high res photos and GPS on the plane, as long as the could correctly measure the planes pitch and yawl. And your assumed accuracy of GPS is really only for real time navigational purposes, land surveyors and cartographers have known for years how to post process GPS measurements to gather vectors to/from known fixed locations for millimeter accuracy. With 20 year old satellites, it's possible they just guess where the satellite is based on it's orbit (and those predictions also account for much of the accuracy issues with GPS).

Before arguing for / against any of these tools or sources of data, you should really understand what the tools do and where the data they use comes from. Otherwise, your only real reason to stick with paper charts is lightning could hit your boat.
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Old 08-06-2011, 14:49   #353
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Anyone using Google Earth images for anything other then looking around the neighbourhood, is using a poor alomost useless tool. The imagery is outdated,. some almost ten years old ( as in my neighbour). Like a lot of Google hype , theres less substance then at first. Its certainly no where near real time or pseudo real time imagery.

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Old 08-06-2011, 16:00   #354
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Anyone using Google Earth images for anything other then looking around the neighbourhood, is using a poor alomost useless tool. The imagery is outdated,. some almost ten years old ( as in my neighbour). Like a lot of Google hype , theres less substance then at first. Its certainly no where near real time or pseudo real time imagery.

Dave
Well said Dave;
Eventually, perhaps even in the very near future, Google Earth will offer real time satellite images, navigation and weather data etc. which would be able to be integrated with all our electronic devices and electronically charged underpants etc. and then, and only then, would it be considered as one of the very many other marine navigation aids available to us sailors.
The steady march towards “Cloud Computing” thankfully makes that next step inevitable but until Google makes that real time offering, “Cloud” based or not, as Dave says, in terms of marine navigation, Google Earth really is useless.
And I would add to that; anyone foolish enough to actually steer via Google Earth had better not tell their insurance brokers. (You might find that your cover has been cancelled).
Some time ago, I joked with Doug86, the originator of this post about using restaurant table mats as my main navigation tool but looking at some of them, I find that they are just about as accurate and informative as many of the hopelessly outdated Google Earth “Postcards”.
But that’s just me…(And Dave I guess)
James
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Old 08-06-2011, 16:08   #355
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Anyone using Google Earth images for anything other then looking around the neighbourhood, is using a poor alomost useless tool. The imagery is outdated,. some almost ten years old ( as in my neighbour). Like a lot of Google hype , theres less substance then at first. Its certainly no where near real time or pseudo real time imagery.

Dave
And if there is no access to the internet ...

The World-Wide Web is not so world wide.
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Old 08-06-2011, 16:29   #356
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Old 08-06-2011, 16:44   #357
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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And if there is no access to the internet ...

The World-Wide Web is not so world wide.
Jackdale:

I suspect that your comment was directed towards my response to Dave so with respect to Dave, I will respond to your comment.

Unless your boat is older and less well equipped than I suspect, you do not need an internet connection to allow your current GPS, Radio, TV, WeatherFax etc. antennae’s to operate effectively.

And as “Cloud Computing”, or more properly, “Cloud Data Distribution” continues to evolve at its currently phenomenal growth rate, although you might ultimately need some form of (Probably very low cost) satellite receiver box to install as an antennae “Gateway”, you will not need an internet connection to allow you to collect and share the data available from the “Cloud”.

You may need to pay an annual subscription fee but that would undoubtedly also include access to the internet but overall, “The Cloud” will integrate everything you need in terms of information about everything via the antennae’s you already own.

The Cloud is not merely another data storage bin, it is, or surely will become, “The Internet”, using thin clients, dumb terminals, access to everywhere, from anything, to everything, all things connected via a myriad of easily accessible communications protocols.

So, to your point on “No Internet Access”; It matters not a whit, if you have almost any kind of antennae, no matter where you are, you will have access to EVERYTHING…

And I’m not talking about years from now, I’m talking about weeks and months from now…

James
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Old 08-06-2011, 17:16   #358
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Let me show you what I do with Google Earth:



Overlay secret plans on the sat image

You can overlay nautical charts too... how's that change your minds?

ciao!
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Old 08-06-2011, 17:44   #359
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

"You can overlay nautical charts too... how's that change your minds?
ciao!
Nick."

LOL. Not sure I have seen too many minds changing on CF!
Hopefully, we change little by little as we reflect on different views.

But by the time paper is truly dead, screens will be on films that look much like paper! I am pretty sure they won't be as immobile as chart plotters.
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Old 08-06-2011, 17:52   #360
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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And I’m not talking about years from now, I’m talking about weeks and months from now
Looking forward to seeing it action.
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