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Old 07-06-2011, 18:44   #331
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by hogfighter View Post
The Chartplotter's really cool color chart (fundamentally the same as we had in the F/A-18 30 years ago)
Can I have a Heads Up Display? That would be kewl

Or could you just project the charts onto the mainsail, please?

We think our boats are so up to date, but compared to the military I don't spose we are

What about some night vision kit and some infrared?

Oh, but the way, would Infrared vision show the difference between sea and rocks? (or sea and breaking waves?) So we could see any obsticles in front of the boat?


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Old 07-06-2011, 18:45   #332
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
So.... with paper chart, pencil, clock and sextant you can plot your position with greater accuracy than a chartplotter with gps? Because that is what you're suggesting here, right?

You must mean that you will use eyeball navigation or radar or some other method useful for close quarters. All of these work just as well combined with a chart plotter than they do combined with a paper chart.

ciao!
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I use eyeball navigation and a large scale paper chart. On occasion I also use danger / clearing bearings and turning points.
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Old 07-06-2011, 19:14   #333
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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I use eyeball navigation and a large scale paper chart. On occasion I also use danger / clearing bearings and turning points.
Exactly. I might use radar when my eyeballs fail to see what needs to be seen. The difference is that I have that same large scale paper chart in my chartplotter and you have it on paper.

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Old 07-06-2011, 19:18   #334
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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We think our boats are so up to date, but compared to the military I don't spose we are

What about some night vision kit and some infrared?
Mark, you don't have a FLIR yet ?!! You must have one, how can you sail without it?!

check out the video : FLIR Maritime Night Vision Cameras

ciao!
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Old 07-06-2011, 19:19   #335
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Exactly. I might use radar when my eyeballs fail to see what needs to be seen. The difference is that I have that same large scale paper chart in my chartplotter and you have it on paper.

ciao!
Nick.
I also use radar at night and in restricted visibility. I know I should run all the time.

My danger bearings and turning points are shown on the paper chart and I use a handbearing compass. I do not trust a GPS location in a narrow channel.
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Old 07-06-2011, 19:42   #336
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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My danger bearings and turning points are shown on the paper chart and I use a handbearing compass. I do not trust a GPS location in a narrow channel.
Oh I agree, GPS isn't meant to take you through a narrow channel.

The thing that I don't agree with is that you need a paper chart. The reason is that my chartplotter also shows those same danger bearings and turning points because it shows the exact same chart and I can draw any bearings, positions or waypoints on it just like one can with pencil and paper chart. I often use my radar to take a bearing, which uses a rate compensated compass and directly transfers the bearing to the integrated chart plotter, or I use the compass inside my Steiner binoculars. When I got the bearing, I can draw it on my chartplotter like you pencil it on the paper chart.

However, with the newest electronics there is another way which is more precise: just overlay the radar image on the chart (can't be done with paper charts) and adjust the chart position (offset) until it matches the radar image. Now I can navigate by looking at the combination of chart and radar (assisted by GPS). This method compensates the GPS error using the radar (which is always right).

disclaimer: I must add that a radar operator's course is advisable; not just to learn how to operate the radar, but also how to interpret the image (stuff like "might show hills just beyond coastline instead of the lower coastline itself" etc.)

ciao!
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Old 07-06-2011, 19:49   #337
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

In making comparisons, I have Explorer chartbooks of the Bahamas. The detail is much, much better than the C-map charts on my computer. Not only that but the paper charts never "lock up" when changing layers.
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Old 07-06-2011, 23:48   #338
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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. . . BTW, I teach electronic navigation,; ; ;
Which chart datum would be used? Canada and the US use different ones. This might actually lead to everyone using lowest astronomical tide, which until now has been impossible as all paper charts would have to be reprinted.
Huh! You teach electronic nav and don't know that the default datum worldwide is WGS84. Digital charts, especially vector charts have been corrected - supposedly - to WGS84. Only if you are using raster or paper charts do you need to be concerned with Datum - and - that is not a problem as each raster/paper chart depicts the Datum in its legend.
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Old 08-06-2011, 05:37   #339
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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I don't understand all the remarks about marina's, anchored boats and changed docks in Grenada... When I later looked at these places with Google Earth, I realized that it would have taken me there as it showed me the bottom contours and thus the way around the shallows. Channels and markers were not maintained. The only other tools to help in those situations is local knowledge and forward looking sonar.

ciao!
Nick.
If you rely upon the Google Earth bottom contours near Lowestoft, or indeed, in much of the North Sea, you will need to have wheels installed to help you run over the sand banks you will undoubtedly run onto. The G.E images are more than 4 years old and the sand banks are constantly, and swiftly, on the move.

Although it is a great first step, G.E is at present little more than a global album of woefully outdated images....James
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Old 08-06-2011, 06:25   #340
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

On the other hand, in areas with "hard rock reefs" and deep passages, Google Earth is a good way to get a feel for the entry path needed. It is nice to see some of the landmarks, if they still exist, that can be used to judge your distances needed to stay in the channels.
- - But for places with sand bottoms or shifting sand banks - like the Bahamas, etc. G.E. is useless due to the age of the photos.
- - Even in Grenada ( I use that as an example as I am intimately acquainted with most of the underwater obstacles there) G.E. is also useless as cloud cover and even the sun angle/reflection on the water makes it impossible to see subsurface features.
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Old 08-06-2011, 06:30   #341
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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If you rely upon the Google Earth bottom contours near Lowestoft, or indeed, in much of the North Sea, you will need to have wheels installed to help you run over the sand banks you will undoubtedly run onto. The G.E images are more than 4 years old and the sand banks are constantly, and swiftly, on the move.

Although it is a great first step, G.E is at present little more than a global album of woefully outdated images....James
I'm Dutch and grew up at the North Sea :-) The big difference is that around the North Sea, all the charts are updated several times a year and accurate. In other places, incl. the Florida Keys, when the chart shows you a ships channel with markers and minimum 7' draft at MLLW, you shouldn't be surprised to see plants growing out of the 1' of water smack in between the channel markers !!

Also, the North Sea has decent tides and tidal currents; sandbanks and even little islands move about rapidly as you say. In the Caribbean, there's so little tide that we don't even monitor it and things are much more static. So, it really depends on the area if GE is useful or not.

ciao!
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:41   #342
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Indeed, DEATH to paper!

Solar eruption promises dramatic aurorae | TG Daily

... there may be some disruption to communications and power, although the NOAA says this is unlikely.

The unlikely part is only because the CME will take a "glancing blow" off the Earth. If it were a direct hit, it would be a different story.
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:57   #343
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Huh! You teach electronic nav and don't know that the default datum worldwide is WGS84. Digital charts, especially vector charts have been corrected - supposedly - to WGS84. Only if you are using raster or paper charts do you need to be concerned with Datum - and - that is not a problem as each raster/paper chart depicts the Datum in its legend.
Yes I know the horizontal datum standard is WGS 84. I also know that many paper charts are not based on that standard.

I was referring to the vertical datum that is used to determine depth of water and the height of tides.

Canada uses Lowest Normal Tides, the US uses Lower Mean water. This why the US gets more negative tides than Canada. If we all used Lowest Astronomical Tides there would be no negative tides.
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:59   #344
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

What would help to actually use GE images for close-in navigation would be updated and accurate buoy locations that could be superimposed on plotters with markers. Are there any lists (other than NOAA) of, say Admiralty or USN worldwide buoy locations? I have tried to see buoys in the images but even the best digital images are not clear enough to see them.
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:12   #345
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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What would help to actually use GE images for close-in navigation would be updated and accurate buoy locations that could be superimposed on plotters with markers. Are there any lists (other than NOAA) of, say Admiralty or USN worldwide buoy locations? I have tried to see buoys in the images but even the best digital images are not clear enough to see them.
Canada has Lists of Lights, Buoys and Fog Signals

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I expect each country produces its own.

GE images also do not show Traffic Separations Zones, Restricted areas, etc..
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