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Old 01-03-2011, 22:19   #16
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
... it's more chart than a paper chart; in fact, the paper chart was made by printing the electronic chart.

cheers,
Nick.
Except when the electronic chart was scanned from an extant paper chart.

What a silly argument, folks! If you like plotting positions (taken from your GPS) onto paper, then go for it. If you like to have that done automatically on an electronic chart that claims to be accurate, then go for it. But for chrissake, keep your eyeballs going out in the real world, look at your other sources of information (depthsounder, radar, AIS etc) and amalgamate ALL the info into your decision making process.

And for those of you who are offshore wannabees, don't think that charts for many third world areas are: accurate, current or even available. Don't assume that nav-aids will be where they are shown, even on the chart you bought yesterday. Don't think that they will be lit as described. Don't think that depths are as shown. It often just ain't so. For instance, outside of Port Vila, we have NEVER seen a lit nav-aid in Vanuatu, despite there being quite a few shown on the charts. In Fiji, in one area we transited 6 out of 7 charted reef markers were missing, and they are not numbered, so that there was no way to determine which the remaining one was. The chart was not corrected to WGS84, nor was it correct in the relationships between charted features. In the Solomons, despite paying a 100 Solomon dollar "light fee", there was not one single lit nav aid (this a few years back admittedly). And so on. This sort of thing is true whether your charts are on paper, silicon or whatever medium you wish. We often say "charts are for planning and dreaming, eyeballs are for piloting when close to lumpy things".

But, it's all good fun...!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 01-03-2011, 22:52   #17
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

This old chestnut.

Each to his own preference, but I do think there are a lot of misleading comments that are posted when this topic is discussed. Lets start with the similarities:

Plotting a position derived from GPS, visual fix or sextant can be done on both.
Dead reckoning can be done on both (a chart plottter hooked up to instruments will be far more accurate)
Route planning and route following can be done on both
Annotations can be done on both

In fact, I can't think of anything that you can do on a paper chart that you can't do on an electronic one.

I can think of a few very handy things that you can do on an electronic chart that are a bit tricky on a paper version - Radar and AIS overlays are 2 that spring to mind.

I can appreciate that some are more comforable with handling and reading a paper chart, but I believe that is more a factor of habit and familiarity. I personaly find working on a paper chart slow and tedious and it keeps me down below at the chart table when I perhaps should at the helm taking bearings to see how they compare to the GPS position on the chartplotter in front of me.

I can verify my position far quicker, with a higher expectation of accuracy, from a greater number of independant sources (Radar, depth, GPS position, visual fix to name a few), without leaving the helm.

This to me is far safer than sitting at the chart table with my calipers and protractor.
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Old 01-03-2011, 23:25   #18
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

If your chart table is by the helm on motorcruiser or on bridgedeck of a catamaran you can have the best of all worlds - old and new.

cheers
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Old 02-03-2011, 02:52   #19
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

doug86,
I fly big jets, we always have paper approach charts clipped to the column or the side panel. We do not rely on memory! Even when we have electronic flight management systems. But I guess we have more responsibilities than a "Private" pilot.
Rgds Moggie
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:49   #20
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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UT, no matter what, I will carry the paper stuff if I go out-of-sight of land!
which is of course, teh place you least need them.!!

dave
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:44   #21
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by moggie View Post
doug86,
I fly big jets, we always have paper approach charts clipped to the column or the side panel. We do not rely on memory! Even when we have electronic flight management systems. But I guess we have more responsibilities than a "Private" pilot.
Rgds Moggie
Moggie, You off all people should know that those small, single pages of paper are properly called 'approach plates', not charts. Furthermore, an approach plate is filled with the information needed to make an instrument approach to landing point, relying on electronic data rather than visual, which only reinforces the argument that modern navigation resources are increasingly electronic and digial, not less so. Was it your intention to argue otherwise, or did you just want to take advantage of an opportunity to put the word "Private" in quotes?

When was the last time had a sectional unfolded and on your lap in your big jet? When was the last time you plotted your position on paper in your big jet? When was the last time you calculated set & drift with an E6B while en route?
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:47   #22
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
The story about navigating blind while looking at a chartplotter is either a funny story or a description of people who should not be on a boat at all.

Go get some navigation lessons; not only will they learn one how to navigate with paper charts, tide tables etc. but they will tell you about radar and how it can be used to find your way even in pitch black conditions.

cheers,
Nick.
A coupla 3 years back I did a Skipper assist delivery from the UK to Olhau on the Algarve coast of Portugal on an Oceanis 331... a newly qualified Coastal Skipper was the owner, only on power.. so it turned into a series of lessons as well.
Anyway... he had a CP at the helm and another below set up next to the radar screen.. when we went through the channel at Ushant I was horrified to see him staring fixedly at the CP.. never a glance up(it was his watch, I was standing by)..
I asked him why he was not looking round at the rocks and treacherous eddy's and currents that try to sweep you one way or the other... his reply was he did not need it as he could see exactly where he was on the screen so did not need to...
I then pointed out a semi submerged rock 200yds to port and showed him on the plotter exactly where we were... over 500 metres ahead and to port of the CP position... in close quarters navigation the CP is always playing catch up... something many 'Lovers' do not seem to be aware of
However this made little impression and for the rest of the voyage I'd wake up and find him and his wife sat below in front of the sets when one of them should have been on watch... this blind faith in things electronic is difficult if not impossible to shake in many people...
I'm sorry but I will allways put my Paper gleaned knowledge and instincts ahead of any 'Electronic Aid'.... in many cases a 500m difference in some waters can be your boat wrecked...
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:15   #23
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

huh? Even if you have a really old system, your position on the chartplotter will be accurate with maximum a couple of seconds delay. The newest systems update every 0.1 second (10 times per second).

No way you're 500 meters "behind". The only explanation for that would be a chart that is inaccurate or (for Ushant more likely) a problem with the GPS where it looses it's fix or is about to lose it. Probably a Raytheon RN-300 which always lost fix when passing reefs etc.

But you're right: people who only look at a screen don't belong behind the wheel, or at least not before they learn how to properly sail & navigate.

ciao!
Nick.
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:56   #24
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
huh? Even if you have a really old system, your position on the chartplotter will be accurate with maximum a couple of seconds delay. The newest systems update every 0.1 second (10 times per second).

No way you're 500 meters "behind". The only explanation for that would be a chart that is inaccurate or (for Ushant more likely) a problem with the GPS where it looses it's fix or is about to lose it. Probably a Raytheon RN-300 which always lost fix when passing reefs etc.

But you're right: people who only look at a screen don't belong behind the wheel, or at least not before they learn how to properly sail & navigate.

ciao!
Nick.
Jedi.... I'd prefer the boat was 500m 'behind' the CP than ahead of it..
Oh.. the unit was a 5yr old Raymarine CP.. dunno what system it was loaded with..
But another thing you can maybe explain... last year going up the Canakkale, Turkey in a different boat... the plotter showed me traversing a hillside 1/2km inland instead of the position I was in the channel...
Sorry guys... to many flaws... I'll stick with the paper.. rather be honest and blame myself than some gadget with fictional perfection...
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:18   #25
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Jedi.... I'd prefer the boat was 500m 'behind' the CP than ahead of it..
Oh.. the unit was a 5yr old Raymarine CP.. dunno what system it was loaded with..
But another thing you can maybe explain... last year going up the Canakkale, Turkey in a different boat... the plotter showed me traversing a hillside 1/2km inland instead of the position I was in the channel...
Sorry guys... to many flaws... I'll stick with the paper.. rather be honest and blame myself than some gadget with fictional perfection...
With this example you probably had an inaccurate chart. If you would have plotted your GPS positions on a paper chart (same as the one in the plotter) you would have seen the same thing.

This has been discussed so often... our position fixes have become so accurate that the charts need to be fixed so that they are as accurate as the position fix. All 1st world waters and high traffic areas have been fixed but outside that you have to be smart enough to deal with it yourself.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:25   #26
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pirate Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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With this example you probably had an inaccurate chart. If you would have plotted your GPS positions on a paper chart (same as the one in the plotter) you would have seen the same thing.

This has been discussed so often... our position fixes have become so accurate that the charts need to be fixed so that they are as accurate as the position fix. All 1st world waters and high traffic areas have been fixed but outside that you have to be smart enough to deal with it yourself.

cheers,
Nick.
Nick.... I think the Canallake is pretty high volume where shippings concerned... like the English Channel.. its the only route for many large ports...
Try again....
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:23   #27
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Ah, now we get people who admit they don't know much (or anything?) about chartplotters, telling us that they are no good.

FYI: yes, they do DR when needed. Like repeated many times already: an electronic chart is a chart... it's more chart than a paper chart; in fact, the paper chart was made by printing the electronic chart.

cheers,
Nick.
You're honestly going to tell me that even 10% of the people running chart plotters are keeping a DR up? For set/drift calculations the point is that you don't know when you'll need DR so there's no way to determine that in advance.
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:26   #28
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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ENC electronic charts are internationally legal (the only ones) for those vessels required to carry charts. The US Navy no longer requires sextant training although merchant ships still do. Not clear why on that. Last I heard the Abacus is no longer required any place (though still legal and quite efficient).
Not all chartplotters, even those using ENC, qualify as ECDIS.
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:43   #29
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

It's odd to think of but I don't imagine we ever would have heard of someone hitting a rock because they had their nose in a chart and didn't think they needed to look where they were going. Using DR they're going to be taking sitings at least and very likely in learning to navigate it became very clear you look where you are going. It's been said before but the fact that people think with a plotter they don't need to learn anything about navigating is a problem, although you might think that looking where you're going is something you learn when you're crawling!
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:50   #30
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

My 80 year old father (USN Navigator years ago) was orating on the evils of automobile GPS units and as an example showed me a newspaper article re some dunce drove into a river when his GPS said TURN NOW.

I responded a GPS nav unit is a TOOL not a replacement for the biological computer between ones ears.

Chartplotter, paper charts, sextant, lodestone, leadline, all tools.
Use them all but don't forget to use your biological computer first of all.

BTW the OM bought a GPS unit recently....
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