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Old 30-03-2011, 16:52   #226
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I think this discussion is becoming silly.
Nick, I think it started out sort of silly (and I started it!). I mean, c'mon, how can PAPER die? It isn't alive in the first place. The silliness was intended.

Its a fun diversion to discuss the future, and what it might look like. Sure beats watching re-runs of Seinfeld or cleaning the bilge.
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Old 30-03-2011, 16:59   #227
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Nick

Sorry to dispute you, but....

Quote:
Am I required by law to carry CHS charts? What are the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations of the Canada Shipping Act?
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage requirements are listed in the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 of the Canada Shipping Act.

CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations. CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances. CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS). CHS raster charts meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
CHS - Frequently Asked Questions - General

Quote:
CARRIAGE OF CHARTS, DOCUMENTS AND PUBLICATIONS

4. (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.
(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
(a) the location and character of charted
(i) shipping routes,
(ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
(iii) navigational hazards; and
(b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995

US recreational boaters are not required to carry charts. I know of no Canadian exemption other than sufficient local knowledge situations.
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Old 30-03-2011, 17:41   #228
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Using all available means ...

Different folks, different boats, different strokes.

Seems discussion is unduly polarised. Regardless of whether people believe in electronics with fervour, many acknowledged use of some form of paper charts (e.g. pilot books). On the other side, few disputed the utility of plotters (even if they choose not to use them / rely on them).

So yeah, all getting a tad silly?

While I continue to use both media, looking forward I see less need for all the detailed paper charts I carry as a matter of habit. By day, I quite like paper. By night, my first call is always the plotter.

At some remote time, perhaps I will have unwavering trust in electrickery.
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Old 30-03-2011, 19:44   #229
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Here's me using paper charts in 2002... they don't even fit on the salon table!! Oh I'm so happy with C-Map



ciao!
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Old 30-03-2011, 20:21   #230
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Here's me using paper charts in 2002... they don't even fit on the salon table!! Oh I'm so happy with C-Map


Nick.
Thats why we fold them.
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Old 30-03-2011, 21:25   #231
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Thats why we fold them.
Nope, you don't need to fold them if you have a couple of these helpers to hold the chart down . . . .
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Old 30-03-2011, 21:30   #232
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Nope, you don't need to fold them if you have a couple of these helpers to hold the chart down . . . .
My wife is allergic to cats.

BTW how do you store a that many charts on a sailboat? I have done it on pwerboats.
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Old 31-03-2011, 05:57   #233
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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My wife is allergic to cats.
BTW how do you store a that many charts on a sailboat? I have done it on pwerboats.
These are unique cats in the world and are Hypoallergenic. You can look them up - Turkish Vans.

- - But the question of how do you store all the charts on a sailboat or other world crusiser is a good one and actually another very good reason for the "Death to paper (charts)." I have over 14,000 charts, e-charts, in my library hard drives that cover most all of the known world's oceans and coastlines. I have about 300 paper charts of the Atlantic and North Atlantic which take up an entire locker and weigh nearly 100 pounds. And the paper charts are rapidly decaying and crumbling.
- - To have a complete collection of paper charts from harbor charts to ocean charts requires an enormous number of them and an enormous investment of money and storage space.
- - Prior to e-charts, cruisers generally traded or passed charts from one to another based on where they were headed next. It was not possible to possess a "world library" in paper charts in vessel smaller than probably the Queen Mary.
- - Keeping them updated was also not possible so cruisers did the best they could and really! kept a sharp eye out when navigating some areas of the world where charts and charting was marginal or non-existent.
- - With e-charts we do not need to carry half a ton of paper charts around. They can all fit on a hard drive or collection of CD's/DVD's.
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Old 31-03-2011, 06:53   #234
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Thats why we fold them.
I'm planning a simple day-sail there... from Belgium to England. The chart shows the approach to Harwich and the chart underneath is the first half of the trip: leaving from Ostend in Belgium. Two full size charts needed for an 80 nm trip and if you fold them you loose all overview just like many complain losing overview of a digital plotter

ciao!
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Old 31-03-2011, 12:16   #235
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I'm planning a simple day-sail there... from Belgium to England. The chart shows the approach to Harwich and the chart underneath is the first half of the trip: leaving from Ostend in Belgium. Two full size charts needed for an 80 nm trip and if you fold them you loose all overview just like many complain losing overview of a digital plotter

ciao!
Nick.

AAHHH!

Crease marks on charts!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought real navigators never folded a chart.

One crease that wears could erase/eliminate a very important data point.

Never fold a chart.

Only roll.

I can't believe what some people do....................

Sheesh!!



(note the )
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Old 31-03-2011, 12:29   #236
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

So, you're saying that folding a paper chart will lead to it's demise? OMG! Even the users of paper charts are causing the death of paper charts!!

(oh, the humanity .... )
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Old 31-03-2011, 13:48   #237
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
AAHHH!

Crease marks on charts!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought real navigators never folded a chart.

One crease that wears could erase/eliminate a very important data point.

Never fold a chart.

Only roll.

I can't believe what some people do....................

Sheesh!!



(note the )
Ha! you must tell that to the chart manufacturer who sells these charts folded into a plastic cover (these are posh waterproof Imray charts)

They are not even paper charts.. they are some plastic parchment kind of charts.

ciao!
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:17   #238
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Doug really started something here with his whimsical question and there has been a great deal of input from a large number of people, some serious, some less so, but all informative or entertaining.

What leaps out at me is the fact that we modern day sailors have such an amazing wealth of (Usually) complimenting data sources available to us to help us navigate safely wherever we want to go in the world at relatively low costs.

It matters not that there are occasional and generally minor variations between the data sources, that's why we have been given eyes, ears, and the ability to think our way through those variances.

I never cease to be amazed at the ease with which I am able to plan what to a 14th century navigator was a life or death decision making process aided by little more than a magnetised needle and some largely anecdotal “Drunken Sailors” stories of what lay beyond the horizon.

And it was their curiosity that formed the foundation of the data sets that we all enjoy today.

Regardless of our preferences for paper, electronics, or more likely, a combination of both, let's be thankful that we don't have to set sail with only the information available to those early explorers...
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:41   #239
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Neither a Paper or an Electronic Chart (with or without Chartplotter) is a substitute for Navigation.

Therefore someone adding a disclaimer shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:53   #240
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Well, now James has stimulated some more thoughts for me. I see what we need is another thread, called Birth of Digits. What I mean is, how much technology do we rely on that doesn't involved paper? How did that technology get adopted, and how much do we really need it?

For instance, most of our modern weather data is collected, analyzed and propagated my means other than paper. Even though weather fax maps end up on paper, that isn't part of the underlying technology. What allows us to cruise with high levels of confidence in weather are satellites and computer models. How many paper of you would be willing to cruise with no hurricane prediction data? Or, even with the very crude hurricane data of a century ago?

Quote:
let's be thankful that we don't have to set sail with only the information available to those early explorers...
I think we are living right now at the end of that age. Chart making technology remained basically the same for 400 years. We are connected to the great explorers, the true map makers by paper. It is really the final, tangible thread that binds us (lust for adventure aside). And the past decade has seen a radical change in that technology.

No longer will anyone have to even survey a coastline to make an accurate chart: they are made from satellite images now. Even the remotest waters of the poles are now zoomed in and viewed accurately by recreational boaters or couch potatoes at home. The days of "uncharted waters" are, for all practical purposes, over; and so is the need to actually go to those places to chart them. These developments were made in just the last few years.

It won't be long before we lump "early explorers" with those who sailed way back in the last half of the 20th century, before GPS and computer based navigation. Those poor guys had to use a sextant, a very expensive watch and plot their position on giant pieces of paper. Can you imagine? They had no GRIB data, no 7 day forecasts, no Google Earth, no way to download the latest charts...
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