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Old 25-03-2011, 13:16   #211
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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yeah, but there was NO land to bump into.
Waterworld. Land was on the chart, and they found it in the end. I imagin that since they were swimming through NYC the land they found was the Adirondacks. Unless every mountain in the world was leveled and the dirt was dumped in the deepest parts of the ocean.
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Old 27-03-2011, 10:39   #212
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

From Inland Waters Resources - Chart Errors - Posted with permission from the author - me.

Some people point out that the information on electronic charts came from the paper charts originally, and others say the paper charts are now all produced from digital information. Each statement trying to prove some point about chart accuracy.

So, let's demystify some of this, mystify some other stuff, and basically just veer off into some wild speculation.

I don't know what the different information flows are, so mainly I'm just speculating on things, but I think overall it will show how complex the situation is and how, no matter what, you can't blindly trust any of it. Errors can creep into one format that doesn't creep into the other. Neither format avoids all the errors that can occur in the other. And there are many errors that can occur in both.

I'm starting this in the sextant era.

Captains got positions by sextant and kept notebooks. Charts were drawn using these notes. Sometimes a mapmaker came along. They may have taken these positions and plotted them right there. In some cases, they went ashore. There they could get better fixes and do averaging, sometimes getting quite accurate. Then, using standard surveying techniques, they could very accurately plot the relation between various land features. They might have a dinghy hold a position over and underwater feature and plot its position from land. In general, the relation between points in an area would be more accurate than the positioning of the overall chart on the earth. Local magnetic changes could have them skew the chart. Inaccurate sextant readings could have them plot the location off as much as a coupla miles.

Along the way, governments started collecting these notebooks and charts and created their own database. Then some mapmakers might go through this to create a more uniformly drawn and notated set of charts. When they found multiple sources of information that disagreed with each other, how they resolved those differences is something I'm not even going to try to guess at.

Various governments might form alliances and share information.

In all this combining of information you'd hope it resulted in an increase of accuracy, but I'm sure errors crept in and politics played a part.

Then along came computers.

The first digital information surely came from someone manually plotting the points and typing them in. Then came digitizers. Along the way, finally, you'd have a database of points. But these would first be for the most used charts. So, charts would have been digitized at different time periods and using different methods.

New areas being charted might have been dealt with in different ways. Early on, some may still have been done as paper first. As time went by, they shifted to going on a computer first, then hand plotted onto paper charts. Eventually we get to the point where it's totally digital. GPS positions fed directly to a computer and travels through various processes and end up on charts.

Now, in what order did the following happen?
  • Paper charts are created from the digital data.
  • Paper charts are scanned for use on computers.
  • Vector charts are used.
  • Paper charts are created directly by the computer

I don't know, but none of it was where a switch was flipped and everything started happening the same way. It was an organic process with multiple methods being used simultaneously.

So, what do we have now?

We have charts in various formats. Some of the features on those charts came from modern times. Some came from the 1800's notebooks. Some came from GPS plots.

Some had errors introduced when they were plotted by hand. Some had errors introduced when some computer conversion routine mishandled an overflow condition when sending it to the plotter. Some errors are introduced by the software that displays it.

Some of these errors are common to both formats (raster/vector). Some only happened when the paper chart was produced, and others only when the vector data was compiled.

So, what is this diatribe is meant to communicate?

Saying all the data came from paper charts is way over simplifying the situation. And saying paper charts now all come from computers also way over simplifies it. They are basically meaningless statements and in general, don't prove what the person was trying to prove.

It also shows that the data has made convoluted, error prone routes to your screen, no matter what the format they end up. And that some errors may be different between the formats.

Once again, it boils down to not trusting one single method of navigation. In electronic navigation, I want multiple sets of charts, the more the merrier. I want multiple sets (and types) of hardware. I want multiple sets of software and operating systems. Now, this may simply mean a computer and a chartplotter, both with their own sets of charts. For myself, I also want a set of paper charts. But I can totally respect someone who is fine relying on a good electronic setup.

When it comes to navigation, many many things cannot be said as an absolute. And this includes many things that on first glance you may think can be said as an absolute.

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Old 30-03-2011, 05:37   #213
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

And, the death of Paper money?
http://www.instamerchant.com/blog/wp...ce-wallet.jpeg
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Old 30-03-2011, 06:01   #214
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by dacust View Post
... So, let's demystify some of this, mystify some other stuff, and basically just veer off into some wild speculation ...
I always enjoy your contributions Dan, but this is an absolutely priceless turn of phrase! Thanks for making my day.
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Old 30-03-2011, 06:08   #215
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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And, the death of Paper money?
That can't come soon enough - I'm really looking forward to that.

NFC is one of those things that almost no one has heard about today. I'll bet that by next March, it'll be one of those acronyms we're all quite familiar with.
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Old 30-03-2011, 09:53   #216
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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My paper money supply was on its last legs the minute I bought my first boat...
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Old 30-03-2011, 11:40   #217
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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And hope no one steals your phone!
As a passer-by, it's bad enough that they can scan my wallet, with its chip in a CC now.
But, what's this have to do with charts?
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Old 30-03-2011, 12:10   #218
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I just spent hours picking possible routes and anchorages between Marco Island and Boot Key. I kept to the computer using Active Captain. It ended up fine but I can tell you that having to zoom in and out and in and out and in and out I now have a pressure sore in my mouse wheel finger!

And having to zoom way in to see any detail and them scrolling the entire route to make sure I didn't plan to sail through an oyster bar or something or other.

I am pretty sure that the next ones will start with the paper laid out so I can see the "big picture" more easily.

I do like the accelerated scrolling on the Active Captain screen though. If not for that I suspect I never would have finished before leaving screaming into the night.

Oh yea, I pay for most everything in cash - the old paper stuff.
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Old 30-03-2011, 13:00   #219
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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But, what's this have to do with charts?
Well, the thread has sort of drifted to a general discussion on the possible obsolescence of all paper based data. Blame it on GordMay, with this post: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Besides paper charts, there are many paper products that were traditionally relied upon by navigators that may not survive in paper form over the next decade. Tide tables? Daily Almanacs? Coastal Pilot? Cruising Guides? I'm not suggesting any or all of these are doomed, but one wonders.... Can you imagine the New York Times announcing that they foresee the end of the paper edition 5 years ago? Stop at a gas station and see if you can find a copy of the yellow pages mounted someplace where the public can readily access them.

I'm pretty sure paper plates will still be available in 20 years.
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Old 30-03-2011, 13:37   #220
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

As long as the electronic sources keep disclaimers on their opening pages, I will be using official publications, which do not have such warnings.
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Old 30-03-2011, 13:48   #221
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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As long as the electronic sources keep disclaimers on their opening pages, I will be using official publications, which do not have such warnings.
Pretty much every NOAA chart I have contains these disclaimers:
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Old 30-03-2011, 14:00   #222
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Pretty much every NOAA chart I have contains these disclaimers:
But does not say "not for navigation."

I do use light lists, and I avoid using floating aids for fixes. Notices to Mariners is my problem, as I get the charts that come with boat.

I guess I should have said the "not for navigation" claimer or the one that says use official publications or "for reference purposes only."

Here is the Navionics warning from the web site.

Quote:
WARNINGS: For Marine Use: The electronic chart is an aid to navigation designed to facilitate the use of authorized government charts, not to replace them. Only official government charts and notices to mariners contain all information needed for the safety of navigation, and as always, the captain is responsible for their prudent use.
Garmins disclaimer

Quote:
CAUTION: The electronic chart is an aid to navigation and is
designed to facilitate the use of authorized government charts,
not replace them. Only official government charts and notices
to mariners contain all information needed for save navigation
– and, as always, the user is responsible for their prudent use.
Must be the same lawyer.
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Old 30-03-2011, 15:36   #223
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Somebody doesn't know that electronic charts from NOAA are official government charts

I think this discussion is becoming silly. We just have to wait to deal with this.. time fixes it and soon the generation that isn't scared of digital data will be commanding our ships and sailing our yachts

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Old 30-03-2011, 16:33   #224
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Somebody doesn't know that electronic charts from NOAA are official government charts

I think this discussion is becoming silly. We just have to wait to deal with this.. time fixes it and soon the generation that isn't scared of digital data will be commanding our ships and sailing our yachts

ciao!
Nick.
As a Canadian I use few NOAA charts. Almost of of my electronic charts are CHS rasters, which do not satisfy the electronic requirements in Canada which need to be ENC running on a ECDIS with trained personnel.

BTW - I am not afraid of digital data. I just have has some issues with the accuracy of some electronic charts. (Not NOAA rasters.) My first computer was a 1982 Osborne, and I spent a good part of my teaching career advocating for the appropriate use of technology in learning as school and system administrator.
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Old 30-03-2011, 16:40   #225
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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As a Canadian I use few NOAA charts. Almost of of my electronic charts are CHS rasters, which do not satisfy the electronic requirements in Canada which need to be ENC running on a ECDIS with trained personnel.
I'm guessing that CHS stands for Canadian Hydrographical Service? Like the official government charts? Then these satisfy any requirement for your yacht afaik. Your reference to ENC is for commercial shipping and even they will have charts based upon CHS data.

Your statement that the electronic charts you see are "not for navigation" is just silly imo.. sorry.

ciao!
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