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Old 22-03-2011, 19:09   #166
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Originally Posted by doug86 View Post
That is exactly my point. It makes all the difference. If no one buys a paper chart, then no one will produce one. In the USA, NOAA charts are now available "print on demand" at many chandlers. Go ask them how that 60" long bed 4 color printer investment is working out for them. Its not, because every year, fewer and fewer people are paying to buy a paper chart, and I contend that paper charts will succumb to 'supply and demand' economics. If no one buys them, no one will print them.
But people will continue to buy paper charts, some people will download the digital charts, where available, and print them. Some people won't buy chart plotters.

I've been using computers since about 1980. People proclaimed for years the death of paper. In fact the opposite occured. Companies used more paper per employee then ever.

Power tools, despite being around for a long time, haven't replaced hand tools.

Books were supposed to disappear but instead we see a publish on demand industry developing.
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Old 23-03-2011, 02:44   #167
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Boatman61:
Dare I suggest that most if not all of the motoring issues you refer to were caused by the loose nut behind the wheel rather than the technology available to them?. For every stupid Sat Nav event, there are tens of millions of Sat Nav events that go unremarked and unreported simply because when applied with a modicum of common sense, the technology works amazingly well.
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Old 23-03-2011, 09:33   #168
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Lan Chile 757(?), static port covered with tape
I can't find any reference to that, so I suspect you just made it up ...

... I, for one, completely accept that as overwhelming evidence that we should never use anything that could possibly break. Think how much better off we'd be if we all just sat in our caves and played with smooth rocks!
I suspect that Don was referring to Aeroperú Flight 603:
Aeroperú Flight 603 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don’t be so reckless, smooth rocks could present a severe choking hazard.
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:56   #169
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

The digital sextant is a fabulous idea. I'll buy one, assuming it's released as an iPhone app, just to satiate my paranoid streak. Never know when something is going to knock out a hardened, highly-critical group of government satellites while not affecting a cheap plastic Chinese cell phone or any of the infrastructure upon which it relies....

I suspect it's actually a fairly simple proposition, and might be remarkably precise. Just (hehe...) take some pictures of the sky, stitch them together, identify some stuff, measure some angles, and there you are. The precision comes from being able to measure angles between EVERYTHING visible and calculating weighted averages.

There have been a couple of similar efforts in biology, primarily botany. None have so far worked. I suspect the night sky is infinitely simpler than biology, so my hopes remain high.

In the meantime, there's this thing: Celestial by Navimatics for iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad on the iTunes App Store
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Old 23-03-2011, 12:59   #170
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Excerpted from: "Hamlet’s Blackberry: Why Paper Is Eternal"
“... there is a sense in the culture, inchoate but unmistakable, that all print media, including magazines and books, are careering toward obsolescence. This is hardly a new idea. Since the advent of the computer in the mid-twentieth century, futurists have been foretelling the death of paper-based communication. So far the obituaries have all been wrong, or at least premature. Time and again, advances in computer technology that were supposed to make hard-copy media obsolete failed to do so. Paper lived on ..."

Read more ➥ http://www.hks.harvard.edu/presspol/...d39_powers.pdf
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Old 23-03-2011, 13:12   #171
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

I see no fundamental difference between paper and electronic charts as both based on the same data - although in my case I simply find it easier to think and visualise in large size. and for me that means paper for the Navigation. For blindly following a course though electronic wins hands down and that's a useful thing to have in the toolbox.

IMO the danger with electronic charts is that a user can fail to understand the basics (as no need to) and can get themselves into situations that they otherwise would not have even tried. Not to say that 99%+ of the time it truly doesn't matter.

back up to the electronics and soggy paper is one of these:-



a stick

If can touch land with it (below or ahead) you are too close. or you point it in the direction you want to go and then follow it.

And also useful for identifying the position of the sun - if you point it upwards at the large yellow ball in the sky, that'll be the sun and if it moves from port to starboard within an hour - you've gone in a circle

can also be used for anti-piracy purposes
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Old 23-03-2011, 14:11   #172
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The film industry is not dead. Just Kodachrome is. Expensive to process and only one lab was left that could do it. All the Extachromes are still being made.
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Old 23-03-2011, 15:05   #173
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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ALL I'M SAYING IS OVER DEPENDANCE ON ELECTRONICS IS DANGEROUS. Humans are lazy!
For USA charts they are all electronic. There have been no paper charts for about 20 years. Paper charts are printed from electronic copies. The recent advance is now you can buy paper charts on demand. This means when printed they are the most current COPY of the electronic. If the errors are still there or added they were made by real persons. There is no escaping people errors. You use any chart at your own peril. It's always been that way.

As best I can tell no charts are maintained other than electronic any place that has them maintained. There are no "master paper charts" left any more.
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Old 23-03-2011, 16:41   #174
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Excerpted from: "Hamlet’s Blackberry: Why Paper Is Eternal"
“... there is a sense in the culture, inchoate but unmistakable, that all print media, including magazines and books, are careering toward obsolescence. This is hardly a new idea. Since the advent of the computer in the mid-twentieth century, futurists have been foretelling the death of paper-based communication. So far the obituaries have all been wrong,
So far? How about:
Quote:
U.S. News & World Report, once part of the triumvirate of newsweeklies but reduced now to a spare monthly, will print its last issue for subscribers in December.
Its news content will now exist exclusively and free on the Web...
or
Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- The Seattle Post-Intelligencer, owned by The Hearst Corp., will stop publishing its print edition and become a Web only news site, the newspaper said Monday.
and
Quote:
At a recent conference, The New York Times‘ publisher and chairman Arthur Sulzberger, Jr., stated that he eventually expects the “Gray Lady” will no longer be a physical newspaper.“We will stop printing the New York Times sometime in the future, date TBD,” he said to attendees of the International Newsroom Summit.
the list goes on and on...

Meanwhile:
Quote:
New York, NY - February 7, 2011 - AOL Inc. announced today that it has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire The Huffington Post, the influential and rapidly growing news, analysis, and lifestyle website founded in 2005, ...AOL has agreed to purchase The Huffington Post for $315 million....which now counts nearly 25 million unique monthly visitors.
HuffPo has never printed anything. Nothing at all on paper, nada, zilch.

your move.
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Old 23-03-2011, 17:09   #175
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Time and again, advances in computer technology that were supposed to make hard-copy media obsolete failed to do so. Paper lived on...
The predictions of the demise of paper weren't wrong. It's just taking longer for the technology to do its job. Each day, paper finds less and less use. We bought a ream of paper for our boat...2 years ago. It's about 1/2 gone. We used to buy it by the case.

My quote for today...

The only paper appropriate on a boat today is toilet paper.

Well, actually, I like having some old newspaper for messy projects too.
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Old 23-03-2011, 17:38   #176
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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What I hate about paper charts is I don't have a big enough boat. IAW the chart table is always too small to get the thing flat out. I will surely welcome electronic charts. BUT, no matter what, I will carry the paper stuff if I go out-of-sight of land!
Just another back-up system.
I do - well I have a boat (35 foot) that is laid out in a fashion that lets me look at a full size chart. See photo - Its in the saloon which is attached to the cockpit and I can see it from either helm.

For the record - I use a Raymarine Plotter, GPS NAVX on a MAc and the CChart on the table and a log book where I write down the lat/long etc each hour. After noting the latlong in the log - I usually - though not always - do a rudimentary manual plot - i.e a couple off compass bearings to landmarks and check that we are where I thought we were - cause this only occurs in sight of land.
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Old 23-03-2011, 17:38   #177
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Tom Tom?, Nuvi?? Are they electric thingy's that need batteries and stuff? They probably cost more than the free table mats I've been using...
And how long will a Tom Tom last when used as a coffee mat?



There's always a use for paper, even in the fabled and fabulous paperless office.
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Old 23-03-2011, 17:49   #178
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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Well, actually, I like having some old newspaper for messy projects too.
What are we going to use when we don't have the newspaper anymore???

Something expensive no doubt.
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Old 24-03-2011, 00:40   #179
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

What happens when we run out of oil etc and no electricity and all the electronic charts are faulty? Crash into things and expect someone to come get us I supose and then find someone to sue! Yeh really makes for a better world and lets face it those of us who left the "real world" did it just for that!!!!!! ;-(
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Old 24-03-2011, 01:59   #180
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Re: Death to PAPER ! More Nails in the Paper Chart Coffin . . .

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What happens when we run out of oil etc and no electricity and all the electronic charts are faulty? Crash into things and expect someone to come get us I supose and then find someone to sue! Yeh really makes for a better world and lets face it those of us who left the "real world" did it just for that!!!!!! ;-(
Good questions.
In terms of charts, I guess we would just work with the latest “Working” data we trusted be those paper or electronic and use the “Buddy System” to update as best we could. With regard to electrical power, battery technology is improving all the time along with the methods used to get power into them. Along with our Wind Turbines, Towed Turbines and current version Solar Panels, I'm wondering how long it will be before some enterprising entrepreneur introduces Sails completely coated with some form of P.V cells so that our entire sail area is one big power farm. Add to that the yet to be invented Solar Cell Paint so that we can paint our topsides and our only problem then would be figuring out how much to charge per unit when we sell our excess power to eager buyers. And now that I have mentioned those things, I have absolutely no doubt that Solar Sails and Paint Will be on the market sooner rather than later....
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