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Old 28-08-2014, 16:30   #31
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

I am frequently amused by folks talking about electronics being "outdated" and thus needing replacement. Exactly what does this mean? Well, usually it is just fewer bells and whistles, most of which are only used at boat shows. A GPS determines the boat's position and displays it, either as numerals or as a dot on a chart. The newer plotters have "3D views" or aerial photos or maybe pac-man games, but their primary purpose of showing where the boat is is unchanged.

With other instruments, the differences are mostly cosmetic as well: colour displays of info that is equally available in b&w and so on. These "improvements" may be attractive, but do not mean that the older units are not usable and adequate.

So, IMO for the budget sailor, the concept of "outdated" is silly. If an existing instrument works, keep you wallet in your pocket and save the dollars for something you really need.

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Old 28-08-2014, 16:44   #32
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Many of you have said that wind instruments aren't important because you can tell which way the wind is blowing.

I actually disagree with this in the specific instance of an inexperienced sailor. It's not about the direction, but the wind speed. I found it incredibly valuable to know what the wind speed was and what the water looked like and how the boat behaved. Only then could I calibrate with a forecast or an ocean buoy report and understand what it means to me in practical terms.

Now I understand what 20 or 30 knots feels like, and I know whether I want to beat into it or not.

Of course, this can also be done with a small hand-held anemometer, you don't need a huge integrated system (though I love my integrated system).
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Old 28-08-2014, 16:56   #33
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Jim- spot on!

I have a Tartan 33 and sail SFLA. The boat came with one older Raymarine wheel based autopilot. The original's head died and I got another used one AP for a few hundred. So now I have two motors. These older autopilots hold a heading just fine. Would I got transatlantic with it? No. Has it made the trip from Hillsoboro Inlet to the Keys on several occasions and a one day round trip to Bimini? Yup!

The depth sounder and knot log are ancient. But they work. The GPS is a garmin 440. What GPS do I use the most? My old Garmin Map76 (grayscale) that is mounted at the helm. But if the boat you love does not have any chart plotter, spring for a Garmin 441 or similar basic GPS.

What I have upgraded was the radio as the old one was a terrible. The new one is also an AIS reciever. If I had to do again, I would buy a basic radio and saved up for a full AIS transceiver. But sailing out of the east coast means more frequent interaction with commercial shipping than in Tampa.

The big thing folks push with upgrading is that all the instruments will be able to talk to each other and you can have one display. FWIW, when I finally upgrade, I will not have one display. If you have one display, if it dies you loose everything. Thinking networking would be interesting, I added a wireless interface that places the AIS data on Wifi and can be placed on iNavx on an iPad. Sounds slick... Rarely use it.

Clearly this is a $ubjective decision that only the skipper can make. I just wanted to share a different perspective. Happy boat shopping!
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Old 28-08-2014, 17:00   #34
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Yeah, no wind speed data means no auto pilot heading from the wind either. If you are sailing on autopilpt, wind info is better than compass or gps input.
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Old 28-08-2014, 17:18   #35
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Have you heard of the Beaufort Scale for measuring wind/sea state??? beaufort scale - Bing Images
Read the description and look at the conditions and you will know within 5k or so how fast the wind is blowing. A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Many of you have said that wind instruments aren't important because you can tell which way the wind is blowing.

I actually disagree with this in the specific instance of an inexperienced sailor. It's not about the direction, but the wind speed. I found it incredibly valuable to know what the wind speed was and what the water looked like and how the boat behaved. Only then could I calibrate with a forecast or an ocean buoy report and understand what it means to me in practical terms.

Now I understand what 20 or 30 knots feels like, and I know whether I want to beat into it or not.

Of course, this can also be done with a small hand-held anemometer, you don't need a huge integrated system (though I love my integrated system).
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Old 28-08-2014, 17:25   #36
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

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Have you heard of the Beaufort Scale for measuring wind/sea state??? beaufort scale - Bing Images
Read the description and look at the conditions and you will know within 5k or so how fast the wind is blowing. A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.
Yes, and I don't really find it that useful. Fetch, time wind has been blowing, depth, and current all have way too much effect on the look of the water.

I'm sure you can guess to within 5 knots, and I'm starting to get closer too. In my first couple years I couldn't, though!

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Old 28-08-2014, 17:52   #37
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Here is my list of every dollar I spent outfitting our boat before we left. COST | Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page

Towards the bottom were the electronics (I installed so no labor for anything).

The refit was a snowball effect. The old chartplotter used CF cards that were only available in small regions...once that was replaced, the radar needed to be digital...etc.
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Old 28-08-2014, 18:27   #38
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Glancing through the other resposes to you questions, you are getting fine advice from experienced offshore and coastal cruisers with whom I heartily agree. If I were in the position of trying to decide whether to go top shelf with elctronics and give up 5-7 feet in the middle of my liveaboard, there is no question I would invest in paper charts and buy the extra space! You can always fix, swap piecemeal your investment in nav equipment, the most important being an autopilot if you plan on cruising short or single handed. Get a seaworthy platform that is comfortable for living aboard as your primary home and go from there. Additionally, you can pick up lightly used electronics very cheaply from folks who absolutely must have the latest and greatest equipment.
And you never know, you might find a compatible mate to share your new lifestyle! Good luck in your search for both... Phil
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Old 28-08-2014, 21:16   #39
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.
Well, Peter, I'm curious: can your face tell the difference between 30 degrees apparent and 40 degrees? I doubt it! And there are some of us who care about such things. I've sailed with and without a good wind instrument, and of course I can sail reasonably well without it... but I believe that I can sail better (especially to windward) with it. And in those times where the situation calls for sailing near DDW: can your face or ears or whatever really tell between 170 degrees and 180, or 170 on the other gybe? I sure find that hard to do. And please, don't tell me how dumb I am for sailing so deep... sometimes it is the best, or even only course to steer.

Or perhaps you are right and I have some issues as a sailor... ya know, I probably DO have some, but I try to hide them. Or just maybe a wind instrument is a good thing to have.

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Old 28-08-2014, 21:22   #40
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

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Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Many of you have said that wind instruments aren't important because you can tell which way the wind is blowing.

I actually disagree with this in the specific instance of an inexperienced sailor. It's not about the direction, but the wind speed.
Wind instrument adds value but it is an often misunderstood device and many installations are not calibrated.

All instruments expose the temtation to blindly follow the instrument without understanding what it does.

I believe it is extremely important fundamental to be able to feel the wind and weather. Temperature change before a squall/thunderstorm. Being able to feel the wind on your face and know how you are trimmed for that.

Here are some technology gotchas that I wave witnessed.

- Skipper turns the boat around because the GPS showed we were heading away from the mark - it was true. 4 knot current and 3 knot boat speed - we were sailing backwards
- Skipper points up too high - head in the cockpit chasing a non-calibrated wind gauge.
- Skipper blindly follows a goto course that crosses a rock/hazard/reef/island

I am a technology advocate as long as one took the time to understand the underlying situation

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Yeah, no wind speed data means no auto pilot heading from the wind either. If you are sailing on autopilpt, wind info is better than compass or gps input.
On a long passage I can see sailing by wind. Coastal sailing not so much. Wind shifts overnight could have the boat on shore.

At sea you could just be off course by 30 miles or so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Have you heard of the Beaufort Scale for measuring wind/sea state??? beaufort scale - Bing Images
Read the description and look at the conditions and you will know within 5k or so how fast the wind is blowing. A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.
Why does one need to know the wind speed? To decide what sail plan to carry.

Relying on a windspeed indicator for that is unwise IMO. What happens if it fails?

I know based on seas state when to reef the sails. Also I can look a mile or three away and see white caps - OK time to reef. My windspeed on the boat only tells me when I get there.
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Old 28-08-2014, 22:37   #41
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Get the bigger boat.

I deliver boats for a living. I use an iPhone with Navionics app for almost all my navigating. Turn on background updates and switch off the screen when you are not looking at it. Set the screen to dim as night and it will last all night. At max brightened during the day it will run out. I leave it plugged in, on a Ram mount clamped to something.

You want a good depth finder, and if you avoid fog and bad weather can skip the radar also. A wind instrument is handy too--I like the ultra sonic ones with no moving parts.

For backup I use an iPad, then paper charts.

My suggestion. Forget about expensive electronics. Get an iPad or an iPhone, RAM mounts , and long charging cords. Also these are good devices for watching Captain Ron.




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Old 28-08-2014, 23:55   #42
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

For where I sail the most essential piece of electronics is a fathometer. An autopilot is nice but it can get you in trouble here in S.E. Alaska as fishing bouys can sneak up on you pretty fast besides my old wagner system won't work when sailing. The larger the boat the more it costs to maintain and dock. When you decide on a boat spend some time using it before you start buying as what you think you need and actually need will most likely be different.
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Old 29-08-2014, 03:23   #43
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Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Sorry for the thread drift but you don't need fancy wind instruments. Close your eyes and move your head till the wind is evenly touching your cheeks. This works fine. I've used this method for 45 years. Back up is a windex on the masthead. The only time you really need to use this method is raising sails and docking. When lowering the boom will tell you when you are into the wind.

Want to trim your sails for maximum efficiency? Place tell tales on the sail! There are numerous articles on the web that discuss this. The best are by Gentry- they are old but the physics hasn't changed.

Just another guys opinion YMMV


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Old 29-08-2014, 03:41   #44
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

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Should I sacrifice a few feet to get everything newer or get something older and roomier and dump money into new nav stuff? I am finding some pretty nice older 37 to 41 footers that will need pretty major electronics updates. On the other hand, if I cut back to 34 to 36 feet, the boats are newer and the electronics tend to be more up to date.
You should get the boat you want (I would get the bigger boat) and worry about "stuff" later. Stuff only matters when deciding between 2 otherwise equal choices.

far as electronic go - $600 - $20,000
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Old 29-08-2014, 04:13   #45
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Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

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Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Sorry for the thread drift but you don't need fancy wind instruments. Close your eyes and move your head till the wind is evenly touching your cheeks. This works fine. I've used this method for 45 years. Back up is a windex on the masthead. The only time you really need to use this method is raising sails and docking. When lowering the boom will tell you when you are into the wind.

Want to trim your sails for maximum efficiency? Place tell tales on the sail! There are numerous articles on the web that discuss this. The best are by Gentry- they are old but the physics hasn't changed.

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