Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-08-2014, 17:30   #31
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,471
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

I am frequently amused by folks talking about electronics being "outdated" and thus needing replacement. Exactly what does this mean? Well, usually it is just fewer bells and whistles, most of which are only used at boat shows. A GPS determines the boat's position and displays it, either as numerals or as a dot on a chart. The newer plotters have "3D views" or aerial photos or maybe pac-man games, but their primary purpose of showing where the boat is is unchanged.

With other instruments, the differences are mostly cosmetic as well: colour displays of info that is equally available in b&w and so on. These "improvements" may be attractive, but do not mean that the older units are not usable and adequate.

So, IMO for the budget sailor, the concept of "outdated" is silly. If an existing instrument works, keep you wallet in your pocket and save the dollars for something you really need.

Jim
__________________

__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 17:44   #32
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Many of you have said that wind instruments aren't important because you can tell which way the wind is blowing.

I actually disagree with this in the specific instance of an inexperienced sailor. It's not about the direction, but the wind speed. I found it incredibly valuable to know what the wind speed was and what the water looked like and how the boat behaved. Only then could I calibrate with a forecast or an ocean buoy report and understand what it means to me in practical terms.

Now I understand what 20 or 30 knots feels like, and I know whether I want to beat into it or not.

Of course, this can also be done with a small hand-held anemometer, you don't need a huge integrated system (though I love my integrated system).
__________________

__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 17:56   #33
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: www.USCGMaster.com
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,882
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Jim- spot on!

I have a Tartan 33 and sail SFLA. The boat came with one older Raymarine wheel based autopilot. The original's head died and I got another used one AP for a few hundred. So now I have two motors. These older autopilots hold a heading just fine. Would I got transatlantic with it? No. Has it made the trip from Hillsoboro Inlet to the Keys on several occasions and a one day round trip to Bimini? Yup!

The depth sounder and knot log are ancient. But they work. The GPS is a garmin 440. What GPS do I use the most? My old Garmin Map76 (grayscale) that is mounted at the helm. But if the boat you love does not have any chart plotter, spring for a Garmin 441 or similar basic GPS.

What I have upgraded was the radio as the old one was a terrible. The new one is also an AIS reciever. If I had to do again, I would buy a basic radio and saved up for a full AIS transceiver. But sailing out of the east coast means more frequent interaction with commercial shipping than in Tampa.

The big thing folks push with upgrading is that all the instruments will be able to talk to each other and you can have one display. FWIW, when I finally upgrade, I will not have one display. If you have one display, if it dies you loose everything. Thinking networking would be interesting, I added a wireless interface that places the AIS data on Wifi and can be placed on iNavx on an iPad. Sounds slick... Rarely use it.

Clearly this is a $ubjective decision that only the skipper can make. I just wanted to share a different perspective. Happy boat shopping!
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael ---- NEW website! www.USCGMaster.com
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 18:00   #34
Guy
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: So. Oregon, USA
Boat: Seafarer36c
Posts: 4,308
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Yeah, no wind speed data means no auto pilot heading from the wind either. If you are sailing on autopilpt, wind info is better than compass or gps input.
__________________
Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 18:18   #35
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,006
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Have you heard of the Beaufort Scale for measuring wind/sea state??? beaufort scale - Bing Images
Read the description and look at the conditions and you will know within 5k or so how fast the wind is blowing. A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Many of you have said that wind instruments aren't important because you can tell which way the wind is blowing.

I actually disagree with this in the specific instance of an inexperienced sailor. It's not about the direction, but the wind speed. I found it incredibly valuable to know what the wind speed was and what the water looked like and how the boat behaved. Only then could I calibrate with a forecast or an ocean buoy report and understand what it means to me in practical terms.

Now I understand what 20 or 30 knots feels like, and I know whether I want to beat into it or not.

Of course, this can also be done with a small hand-held anemometer, you don't need a huge integrated system (though I love my integrated system).
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 18:25   #36
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Have you heard of the Beaufort Scale for measuring wind/sea state??? beaufort scale - Bing Images
Read the description and look at the conditions and you will know within 5k or so how fast the wind is blowing. A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.
Yes, and I don't really find it that useful. Fetch, time wind has been blowing, depth, and current all have way too much effect on the look of the water.

I'm sure you can guess to within 5 knots, and I'm starting to get closer too. In my first couple years I couldn't, though!

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 18:52   #37
Registered User
 
funjohnson's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Currently Indiantown FL
Boat: 37' aluminum pilothouse "Elements"
Posts: 1,847
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Here is my list of every dollar I spent outfitting our boat before we left. COST | Matt & Jessica's Sailing Page

Towards the bottom were the electronics (I installed so no labor for anything).

The refit was a snowball effect. The old chartplotter used CF cards that were only available in small regions...once that was replaced, the radar needed to be digital...etc.
__________________
MJSailing.com - Written Blog
Youtube MJ sailing - Vlog
funjohnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 19:27   #38
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Glancing through the other resposes to you questions, you are getting fine advice from experienced offshore and coastal cruisers with whom I heartily agree. If I were in the position of trying to decide whether to go top shelf with elctronics and give up 5-7 feet in the middle of my liveaboard, there is no question I would invest in paper charts and buy the extra space! You can always fix, swap piecemeal your investment in nav equipment, the most important being an autopilot if you plan on cruising short or single handed. Get a seaworthy platform that is comfortable for living aboard as your primary home and go from there. Additionally, you can pick up lightly used electronics very cheaply from folks who absolutely must have the latest and greatest equipment.
And you never know, you might find a compatible mate to share your new lifestyle! Good luck in your search for both... Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 22:16   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,471
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.
Well, Peter, I'm curious: can your face tell the difference between 30 degrees apparent and 40 degrees? I doubt it! And there are some of us who care about such things. I've sailed with and without a good wind instrument, and of course I can sail reasonably well without it... but I believe that I can sail better (especially to windward) with it. And in those times where the situation calls for sailing near DDW: can your face or ears or whatever really tell between 170 degrees and 180, or 170 on the other gybe? I sure find that hard to do. And please, don't tell me how dumb I am for sailing so deep... sometimes it is the best, or even only course to steer.

Or perhaps you are right and I have some issues as a sailor... ya know, I probably DO have some, but I try to hide them. Or just maybe a wind instrument is a good thing to have.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 22:22   #40
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
Many of you have said that wind instruments aren't important because you can tell which way the wind is blowing.

I actually disagree with this in the specific instance of an inexperienced sailor. It's not about the direction, but the wind speed.
Wind instrument adds value but it is an often misunderstood device and many installations are not calibrated.

All instruments expose the temtation to blindly follow the instrument without understanding what it does.

I believe it is extremely important fundamental to be able to feel the wind and weather. Temperature change before a squall/thunderstorm. Being able to feel the wind on your face and know how you are trimmed for that.

Here are some technology gotchas that I wave witnessed.

- Skipper turns the boat around because the GPS showed we were heading away from the mark - it was true. 4 knot current and 3 knot boat speed - we were sailing backwards
- Skipper points up too high - head in the cockpit chasing a non-calibrated wind gauge.
- Skipper blindly follows a goto course that crosses a rock/hazard/reef/island

I am a technology advocate as long as one took the time to understand the underlying situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Yeah, no wind speed data means no auto pilot heading from the wind either. If you are sailing on autopilpt, wind info is better than compass or gps input.
On a long passage I can see sailing by wind. Coastal sailing not so much. Wind shifts overnight could have the boat on shore.

At sea you could just be off course by 30 miles or so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Have you heard of the Beaufort Scale for measuring wind/sea state??? beaufort scale - Bing Images
Read the description and look at the conditions and you will know within 5k or so how fast the wind is blowing. A sailor that can't tell the wind direction by the feel of it on his face has some issues as a sailor.
Why does one need to know the wind speed? To decide what sail plan to carry.

Relying on a windspeed indicator for that is unwise IMO. What happens if it fails?

I know based on seas state when to reef the sails. Also I can look a mile or three away and see white caps - OK time to reef. My windspeed on the boat only tells me when I get there.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2014, 23:37   #41
Registered User
 
Night_Sailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Connecticut
Boat: Many
Posts: 53
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Get the bigger boat.

I deliver boats for a living. I use an iPhone with Navionics app for almost all my navigating. Turn on background updates and switch off the screen when you are not looking at it. Set the screen to dim as night and it will last all night. At max brightened during the day it will run out. I leave it plugged in, on a Ram mount clamped to something.

You want a good depth finder, and if you avoid fog and bad weather can skip the radar also. A wind instrument is handy too--I like the ultra sonic ones with no moving parts.

For backup I use an iPad, then paper charts.

My suggestion. Forget about expensive electronics. Get an iPad or an iPhone, RAM mounts , and long charging cords. Also these are good devices for watching Captain Ron.




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Night_Sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2014, 00:55   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Alaska
Boat: Homebilt, Motor Sailor, 30'
Posts: 12
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

For where I sail the most essential piece of electronics is a fathometer. An autopilot is nice but it can get you in trouble here in S.E. Alaska as fishing bouys can sneak up on you pretty fast besides my old wagner system won't work when sailing. The larger the boat the more it costs to maintain and dock. When you decide on a boat spend some time using it before you start buying as what you think you need and actually need will most likely be different.
__________________
Sealaskan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2014, 04:23   #43
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: www.USCGMaster.com
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,882
Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Sorry for the thread drift but you don't need fancy wind instruments. Close your eyes and move your head till the wind is evenly touching your cheeks. This works fine. I've used this method for 45 years. Back up is a windex on the masthead. The only time you really need to use this method is raising sails and docking. When lowering the boom will tell you when you are into the wind.

Want to trim your sails for maximum efficiency? Place tell tales on the sail! There are numerous articles on the web that discuss this. The best are by Gentry- they are old but the physics hasn't changed.

Just another guys opinion YMMV


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael ---- NEW website! www.USCGMaster.com
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2014, 04:41   #44
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,326
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTSmith View Post
Should I sacrifice a few feet to get everything newer or get something older and roomier and dump money into new nav stuff? I am finding some pretty nice older 37 to 41 footers that will need pretty major electronics updates. On the other hand, if I cut back to 34 to 36 feet, the boats are newer and the electronics tend to be more up to date.
You should get the boat you want (I would get the bigger boat) and worry about "stuff" later. Stuff only matters when deciding between 2 otherwise equal choices.

far as electronic go - $600 - $20,000
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-08-2014, 05:13   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,714
Re: Cost of Refitting Navigation Electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snore View Post
Sorry for the thread drift but you don't need fancy wind instruments. Close your eyes and move your head till the wind is evenly touching your cheeks. This works fine. I've used this method for 45 years. Back up is a windex on the masthead. The only time you really need to use this method is raising sails and docking. When lowering the boom will tell you when you are into the wind.

Want to trim your sails for maximum efficiency? Place tell tales on the sail! There are numerous articles on the web that discuss this. The best are by Gentry- they are old but the physics hasn't changed.

Just another guys opinion YMMV
I learnt with pieces of woolen yarn tied to the shrouds. (It was before compact cassette tapes )
__________________

__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
electronics, navigation, refit

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My navigation electronics upgrade Don1500 Marine Electronics 1 16-04-2014 19:48
Ideal Electronics / Navigation Package Wish List if You Were Renewing Lagoon4us Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 39 24-11-2012 22:39
410: Cost of Refitting ArtM Lagoon Catamarans 10 24-06-2012 10:26
Navigation Without Electronics Stuarth44 Navigation 46 28-07-2009 22:15
Cost of refitting with multiple other issues starfish62 Liveaboard's Forum 27 22-10-2007 19:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.