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Old 24-05-2009, 21:44   #1
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CM93 International Charts

What exactly are CM93 International Charts ?
and how do purchase these charts ?
Reference by others implies that these are World Wide Charts.

Can anyone supply first hand information and experience using these
Charts and where are they available from.

Great Forum to learn from those who have ' been there and done that '

Thank you one and all
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Old 26-05-2009, 06:57   #2
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Jeppesen Norway - C-MAP Professional Information
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Old 23-08-2009, 06:37   #3
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Originally Posted by Jeff Millar View Post
What exactly are CM93 International Charts ?
and how do purchase these charts ?
Reference by others implies that these are World Wide Charts.

Can anyone supply first hand information and experience using these
Charts and where are they available from.

Great Forum to learn from those who have ' been there and done that '

Thank you one and all
well, jeppensen is half the answer as for display it is usually MaxSea, there is also an ancient CMAPECS.

Dispite all the originals, cracked versions are popular within the yachties without money, the newest CM93/2 is 2009, for problems read other threads, eg openCPN (this is the only legal and open to public program that reads CM93 if I did not get everything wrong.

I for myself use Raymarine Radar_Plotter with Navionics wide range charts, but it interesting to follow the threads and compare the digital charts for accuracy.
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Old 23-08-2009, 15:09   #4
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" ...cracked versions.." - read: STOLEN

" ... openCPN (this is the only legal and open to public program that reads CM93 ..." - read UNRELIABLE AND ALLOWING TO USE STOLEN PROPERTY

I would love the Open CPN to be the way to go but it is not at the stage yet. I tested it 2 months ago and in only 1 hour I found a fault that disqualifies it as a navigation tool. But I wish them best luck as some other Open Source things took off the ground and are real very good now. (I am writing this from a Firefox browser!).

Another glitch is the CM93 C-maps are way out of date. I stated elsewhere on the forum I am yet to see a "2009" version of CM93 - 93 stands for 1993 - would you use a paper chart knowing it is 15 years old? CM93 may be OK as long as you are far from any dangers - but that is exactly when you need it least.

Also, CM93 give next to nill coverage where there is little cargo traffic - meaning huge areas of where we cruise are charted only at scale that is not good enough to be used for safe navigation (sure - since the cargo ship never goes there!) One has to understand how the vector graphics work to see that (but briefly - even if you zoom down to 1:2000 the original chart could very well be at 1:200000 or 1:500000 !!!).

And finally, a decent plotter is about 350 USD and a C-cartridge say another 150 (cheaper second-hand) so unless you are heading seriously offshore I do not see why should anybody be going the CM93 way.

b.
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Old 23-08-2009, 17:20   #5
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Another glitch is the CM93 C-maps are way out of date. I stated elsewhere on the forum I am yet to see a "2009" version of CM93 - 93 stands for 1993 - would you use a paper chart knowing it is 15 years old? CM93 may be OK as long as you are far from any dangers - but that is exactly when you need it least.
Thanks for playing, but not quite. CM93 stands for the 1993 specification, not to be confused with chart data.

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And finally, a decent plotter is about 350 USD and a C-cartridge say another 150 (cheaper second-hand) so unless you are heading seriously offshore I do not see why should anybody be going the CM93 way.
C-cartridge? As in C-maps? As in the ones that you wouldn't use because they are way out of date?
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Old 23-08-2009, 18:46   #6
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I suggest anybody in doubt should contact Jeppesen and ask.

C-map cartography sold on cartridges is up to date, as much as the cartridge is up to date, and the older cartridges can be updated at a dealer.

The newer the cartridge the better - the C-map MAX contains not only new cartographic data (for some areas that were earlier covered only in general now the coverage goes all the way to coastal and often on to plans) but also aerial pictures and harbour data, i.a..

It is ultimately the responsibility of the captain to safely navigate his ship. This includes using the newest, corrected charts of the area at the scale appropriate for the kind of navigation undertaken. I my opinion, CM93 (as it is used by many sailors who cannot, or do not want to, obtain legal and up to date cartography) does not meet this requirement in very many areas of much interest to the cruising sailor.

I say this from experience of our 6-years' round the world voyage where we could compare the data visible on plotters using the C-map cartridges with CM93 charts displayed on other cruisers laptops. We could also compare the CM93 data with paper charts of many areas. From this experience I can state that the CM93 (as used by many cruisers) is out of date and has no detail for dozens of cruising destinations - they are just too general unless the area is of any interest to the merchant navy.

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Old 23-08-2009, 18:52   #7
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" ... openCPN (this is the only legal and open to public program that reads CM93 ..." - read UNRELIABLE AND ALLOWING TO USE STOLEN PROPERTY
Commercial programs that will read the legal versions of cm93 will also read the illegal ones. Just because you can use the illegal ones in OpenCPN doesn't make the software bad. I don't think there is any special code in OpneCPN to allow it to use illegal cm93.

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I would love the Open CPN to be the way to go but it is not at the stage yet. I tested it 2 months ago and in only 1 hour I found a fault that disqualifies it as a navigation tool. But I wish them best luck as some other Open Source things took off the ground and are real very good now. (I am writing this from a Firefox browser!).
OpenCPN has improved much in just the last 2 months. It is being VERY actively developed. I expect to see it improve rapidly. You might join in in the OpenCPN thread and post the problem(s) you found. I would be surprised if you don't get a rapid response if it is really a significant problem. We have posted problems in there and had a new beta the next day with the fix.

-dan
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Old 24-08-2009, 05:13   #8
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Every single chart - whether printed or electronic - is out-of-date the moment it is manufactured. The question then to be answered is how out-of-date is acceptable ? But - bear in mind that there is not a single commercially-produced chart in the world that gives any guarantee of safe water, nor that the hazards it displays are comprehensive, nor that any position given can be relied upon absolutely. As such, charts are only an aid to navigation and should NEVER be relied upon - if in doubt use appropriate caution and the Mk.I eyeball.

Non-professional mariners who use out-of-date charts are continuing to use them for a reason. In areas other than the US, one is undoubtedly shortage of funds - folios of UKHO/ Admiralty charts are prohibitively expensive, despite the data they use having been gathered at taxpayer's expense ! Another reason may be an unwillingness to be tied-in to a single manufacturer's format, and thus running the risk of being held to ransom. If C-Map decided to change either their format (yet again) or their media (yet again), there's nothing their users could do except cough-up the extra dosh for updated info.
Although I find difficulty warming to it myself, I can easily see why MaxSea is so popular, with it's ability to display and work with a whole range of chart types.

OpenCPN is far from being a highly polished finished product, but there is a lot of effort being put into this software, which is to be applauded. My guess is that within 12 months it will be the preferred program for many.
The very existence of programs like SeaClear and OpenCPN is proof that people are not at all happy with the existing state of affairs regarding electronic navigation.
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Old 24-08-2009, 07:49   #9
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" ...cracked versions.." - read: STOLEN

" ... openCPN (this is the only legal and open to public program that reads CM93 ..." - read UNRELIABLE AND ALLOWING TO USE STOLEN PROPERTY
The question if the use of updated cm93/2 versions is legal, without paying c-map, is a very interesting one.

Until 2003 c-map, who paid royalties for the chart data to national hydrographic offices, was clearly an owner. However, since then, outside c-map, cm93/2 has been updated several times. Updated means that the original data has been replaced.
Therefore, c-map does not own the chart data any more.

As the structure of cm93 is a hierarchical one and as such has been in use for several millennia, it seems difficult to claim intellectual property rights for it.

Remains the name, cm93. Well, letís call the map collection BL2008 or BL2009 or so and we have that point out of the way.
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Old 24-08-2009, 13:58   #10
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" ...cracked versions.." - read: STOLEN
Copyright violation is copyright violation - it's certainly unlawful, but it isn't THEFT, as nothing has been stolen.

As we are talking principally about UKHO data, it's probably best to use English law as a reference, in which under Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968: "a person is guilty of theft if: he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". Which begs the question of what constitutes 'property' in this instance ?

Is the data itself 'property' ? Well, there would be a need to prove that permanent deprivation of that data has occurred. As the UKHO is capable of retaining data, and C-Map capable of retaining copies of the relevant CM93/2 folios, it would be very difficult to argue that any permanent deprivation of the data has occurred, either as 'pure' data, or in C-Map encrypted format.

Could income from the charts then be considered 'property' ? In this instance I doubt it, as C-Map no longer offer CM93/2 charts for sale, therefore there is no income from their licence to consider. Likewise it is doubtful that The Crown (who own and run the UKHO) could successfully argue a case for loss of revenue, as they would need to demonstrate that there is an income to be made from the sale of out-of-date electronic charts in a redundant format.

That's not to say that the UKHO wouldn't threaten prosecution - they are in a powerful position to do so as the British courts are also run on behalf of The Crown - but in my view such a prosecution would be a dangerous gamble for them to take, as the loss of such a case would set a damaging precedent, the potential losses from which would render the current issue utterly insignificant.
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Old 24-08-2009, 19:10   #11
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I agree with most comments above. Maybe it all depends on point of view, which in turn depends on our background and on the way we chose to achieve our goals. What to some is theft, to others is not. What one considers to be good, someone else will see as not good enough.

OK.

But why oh why oh why use OpenCPN plus CM93 (with all their vulnerabilities and limitations) if one can choose a small plotter and an up-to-date and way more informative C-Map MAX cartridge ??? Is it not safer/more reliable/perhaps even cheaper? (After all one needs a laptop, the cables (the proprietary plus the RSC/USB and the GPS unit and a lot of boat energy) to run OpenCPN on a laptop.

And for those who want to/must go the laptop avenue - why not use software that uses the US charts - I hear they are free for download from a US government server?

And I say it once again - I believe in OpenCPN, I wish them luck, I do, but I think it is not good enough yet (it was not 2 months ago) and I do not believe in CM93 (read: I do not trust the data, nor find it sufficient to navigate safely) - I am believe CM *is* out of date.

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Old 24-08-2009, 20:00   #12
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And for those who want to/must go the laptop avenue - why not use software that uses the US charts - I hear they are free for download from a US government server?
You mean like Opencpn? It handles S-57 charts just fine as well as BSB3. I guess I honestly fail to see your point entirely... Opencpn handles all these formats, unlike seaclear (which I do like, but only supports BSB3 and is pretty well abandoned by the developer). I'm not aware of any other free alternatives, and commercial products which support this variety of charts is several hundred US$.

And of course US data is only of use to those only interested in sailing in US waters.

I do have an onboard chartplotter (with chart card) - it's great while underway but not so great for planning. For me, a combination of computer and dedicated hardware gives me the best of all words. I can do anything and everything I could possibly want.

And Opencpn is a piece of this, whether the charts from from BSB3, S-57, or CM93... Is it completely baked and ready for primetime? Not yet, but it won't be long before it's the cruiser's choice for PC-based chartplotter.
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Old 24-08-2009, 20:10   #13
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But why oh why oh why use OpenCPN plus CM93 (with all their vulnerabilities and limitations) if one can choose a small plotter and an up-to-date and way more informative C-Map MAX cartridge ???
It's free?

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Is it not safer/more reliable/perhaps even cheaper? (After all one needs a laptop, the cables (the proprietary plus the RSC/USB and the GPS unit and a lot of boat energy) to run OpenCPN on a laptop.
I already have plenty of PCs, laptops, etc. I would not want to rely on a single chartplotter, so I would always have a standby GPS (or 3 as the case may be). I also use a laptop for other purposes on the boat.
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And for those who want to/must go the laptop avenue - why not use software that uses the US charts - I hear they are free for download from a US government server?
OpenCPN also uses those, too. And BSBs. But, the free charts only cover the US waters (and a few rivers in other countries). I am collecting links to all the free charts I can find and posting them on my website here. You got any more I can add?
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And I say it once again - I believe in OpenCPN, I wish them luck, I do, but I think it is not good enough yet (it was not 2 months ago) and I do not believe in CM93 (read: I do not trust the data, nor find it sufficient to navigate safely) - I am believe CM *is* out of date.
So, 2 months ago, what was the issue that made you steer clear of it? Just curious. If it hasn't already been fixed, I'll mention it in that thread.

Don't misunderstand me, I also have about $3,000 tied up in Nobeltec software. I'm not an OpenCPN zealot. I'm just tired of paying Nobeltec for updates everytime they make something else obsolete. And I like having a set of world charts for exploring.

Basically, different people have different ideas. I'm sorry we don't all totally agree with your ideas. (You notice ALL and TOTALLY, some agree, some agree partially, etc. I agree with a lot you have said.) For some people, the electronic charts are merely a nice addition to their well used paper charts and sextant (or GPS if they are into those modern gadgets). The free OpenCPN may do them just fine. If they had to pay for something, they would just stay with paper. So the free software is a way for them to get that other tool.

-dan

EDIT: Sorry, I was working on this while scotte posted. I duplicated somethings already said...
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Old 24-08-2009, 20:42   #14
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If the free is better I also stick with the free. Who would not? If the non-free is too expensive, I go without. Why not?

I use what I believe safest for the kind of navigation I do. A plotter with a cartridge and off course a sextant and paper charts (now these ARE really expensive) work for me.

All you have to do to know what my issue with OpenCPN was is look up the newest readme file with OpenCPN release - it will be there. Briefly - we found out that when sending WPTs from the software to the GPS they seemed off the charted position. Indeed this was the case - one of the decimals of the lat&long was not transferred correctly. In our judgement the possible error was of 1.5 Nm range.

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Old 24-08-2009, 20:44   #15
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I am collecting links to all the free charts I can find and posting them on my website here.
Thanks dacust, that's great!
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