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Old 29-06-2011, 14:33   #31
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by brak View Post
Not to argue with the rest of it but S-57 is most certainly *not* XML files. It would be nice if they were (though then parsing them would be a lot slower).
My mistake - I forgot that it was the updating methodology where the update information "instructions" are in XML format - not the chart data files themselves. My bad...
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Old 29-06-2011, 16:30   #32
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Re: CM93 International Charts

I share the views of the open minded Dacust and Scottie on this one and since most of the Pro’s and Con’s and legal issues etc. have already been well covered, I would like to respond to the questions that Jeff Millar Actually asked:
First of all Jeff, the CM93 charts are essentially a global compilation of the “Localized” C-Map cartridges that you can buy to slot into any compatible Chart Plotter.
It was developed for, and sold to, the commercial folks but it will run happily within OpenCPN.
Next, the CM93 package truly is Global and has the same wealth of detail (Globally) as the C-Map cartridges or products from other vendors electronic packages, or even paper, and,
Sadly, the version that will run within OpenCPN is not legally for sale anywhere. Many scam artists will claim to offer you a “Free Download” but they never actually deliver CM93, they will take your money and hit you with more viruses than you can shake a stick at so they are to be avoided.
In terms of first hand experience, I recently paid £200 for a C-Map NT Max Wide cartridge covering the UK and Ireland for one of my topside plotters and I’m very happy with it.
And, since I use my laptop with OpenCPN and CM93 (Version 2, Jan 2010) installed as a route planning tool and, with a GPS dongle as a backup plotter if all else were to fail, I thought I should test them in real time conditions, out in the North Sea with my primary and secondary plotters side by side and I found absolutely, positively, no worthwhile variances.
I then ran my (Admittedly older) US East Coast cartridges along with OpenCPN / CM93 setup and again, found no significant variances and found as many others have found, that whilst OpenCPN is FREE, it is in no way lacking in performance. (A BIG thanks to those folks who give their skills freely).
One thing you need to understand is what some other posters seem to have forgotten which is that without exception, ALL E.Chart systems warn against using them as a primary source of navigation.
Ergo, if you can find a reliable source for a copy of the almost 22,000 files contained within CM93, and if you are happy with OpenCPN, my advice is to go for it and if nothing else, use it as a home based route planning system.
Sorry for the long post but I had a lot to say…James
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Old 30-06-2011, 05:59   #33
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by Zoef View Post
The question if the use of updated cm93/2 versions is legal, without paying c-map, is a very interesting one.

Until 2003 c-map, who paid royalties for the chart data to national hydrographic offices, was clearly an owner. However, since then, outside c-map, cm93/2 has been updated several times. Updated means that the original data has been replaced.
Therefore, c-map does not own the chart data any more.

As the structure of cm93 is a hierarchical one and as such has been in use for several millennia, it seems difficult to claim intellectual property rights for it.

Remains the name, cm93. Well, letís call the map collection BL2008 or BL2009 or so and we have that point out of the way.
C-Map (i.e. Jeppesen) never owned the chart data in the first place - and any later editions of any charts do not make earlier versions copyright-free.
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Old 30-06-2011, 06:01   #34
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by sae140 View Post
I'm surprised to hear that the UKHO has prosecuted for their interests in CM93/2 charts - in general terms it appears that they have at last realised that they are fighting a losing battle, and have reduced their prices accordingly: for example, they have recently licensed a full folio of electronic charts for UK waters for just £30 (c. $45 US) - that's 400+ electronic charts for around the price of 1.4 paper charts.
UK / Irish waters charts for SeaClear 800 charts for £29.50 ??? : by Bryant [SeaClear FREE Windows navigation software] - VisitMyHarbour articles

My guess is that it is only a matter of time before UKHO charts (or rather, their data) become free at point-of-sale.

I'd also like to read chapter and verse on the Maltese
prosecution, but I also can't be arsed to translate from a minority language.
You will have a very long wait. Charts are paid for by sales as the UKHO is not financed by central government as such.
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Old 30-06-2011, 07:26   #35
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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G'Day SAE,

Very interesting report! Seems like another case where the only winners are the lawyers, certainly not the Pommie taxpayers.

So, I was wondering if anyone knows just how much revenue is generated for the UK by their selling rights to this sort of intellectual property? Is their reluctance to follow the US and others in giving away the data really fiscally based or is it just sticking blindly to rules established back in the days when the only means of exchanging such data was with expensive paper charts or other publications?

If, as I suspect, the revenue is inconsequential, they should consider rethinking this policy. A revenue stream that generates less income than its costs (direct and indirect) is only good for maintaining a bureaucracy, not for the country.

Cheers,

Jim
I suggest that you do some research on the subject and look at the UKHO accounts, which are made public. The revenue stream pays for the production of the charts and it is a fallacy that they are paid for by central government.
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Old 05-07-2011, 06:14   #36
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by Cuttlefish View Post
I suggest that you do some research on the subject and look at the UKHO accounts, which are made public. The revenue stream pays for the production of the charts and it is a fallacy that they are paid for by central government.
Fallacy ? The UKHO is a department of the MoD (which is 100% taxpayer-funded), but while it's true that the UKHO is run as a 'Trading Fund' (meaning that it is run along commercial lines, and should be self-supporting), by far and away it's biggest customer is ... wait for it ... yes, you guessed - the MoD.
And so the UKHO remains financially viable, but only by selling it's products back to itself.

Extracts from the "Annual Report and Accounts for 2009/2010 of the UK Hydrographic Office (UKHO)" have been published on-line by the European Public Sector Information (PSI) Platform, and page 42 of the UKHO Annual Report reads ...

"Hydrographic Data"

"In carrying out its business, the UKHO utilises raw hydrographic data provided by the Ministry of Defence and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency [which of course are directly taxpayer-funded, but they fail to mention that] but a significant element is also derived from foreign governments and private companies. The vast bulk of this hydrographic data is owned by these third parties, and the UKHO pays for its usage through royalties. The very small proportion of data owned by the UKHO was mainly acquired many years ago, and is not normally used now in the production of charts without being updated by recent soundings etc. Consequently, the data is of limited value to the UKHO."

Which surely begs the question - if this data is indeed of such limited value, why continue to threaten for (alleged) copyright violations of it ?
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:06   #37
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by Zoef View Post
The question if the use of updated cm93/2 versions is legal, without paying c-map, is a very interesting one.

Until 2003 c-map, who paid royalties for the chart data to national hydrographic offices, was clearly an owner. However, since then, outside c-map, cm93/2 has been updated several times. Updated means that the original data has been replaced.
Therefore, c-map does not own the chart data any more.

As the structure of cm93 is a hierarchical one and as such has been in use for several millennia, it seems difficult to claim intellectual property rights for it.

Remains the name, cm93. Well, let’s call the map collection BL2008 or BL2009 or so and we have that point out of the way.
I think you will find that the underlying chart data in the C-Map product was reproduced under licence from various hydrographic authorities. It wasn't owned by C-Map. You will also find that it is not difficult to claim that intellectual property applies to such material.
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Old 16-11-2011, 13:39   #38
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by Zabriskie View Post
I think you will find that the underlying chart data in the C-Map product was reproduced under licence from various hydrographic authorities. It wasn't owned by C-Map. You will also find that it is not difficult to claim that intellectual property applies to such material.
As our ancesters collected already hydrographic data, I don't think copyright is involved. Presenting hydrographic information digitally does not make it original.
What's left are database rights, to protect the investment in obtaining, verifying and presenting its content, which run out after 15 years.
Most chart data is much older.....
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Old 24-11-2012, 12:19   #39
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Re: CM93 International Charts

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Originally Posted by Zoef View Post
The question if the use of updated cm93/2 versions is legal, without paying c-map, is a very interesting one.

Until 2003 c-map, who paid royalties for the chart data to national hydrographic offices, was clearly an owner. However, since then, outside c-map, cm93/2 has been updated several times. Updated means that the original data has been replaced.
Therefore, c-map does not own the chart data any more.

As the structure of cm93 is a hierarchical one and as such has been in use for several millennia, it seems difficult to claim intellectual property rights for it.

Remains the name, cm93. Well, letís call the map collection BL2008 or BL2009 or so and we have that point out of the way.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Being licensed to use data does not make you its owner.
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Old 24-11-2012, 14:17   #40
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Re: CM93 International Charts

Zabriskie made that point a year ago in posting 37. What remains is that de data used by c-map has been replaced and complemented, by unknown using data to which nobody claims rights.
Qui tacet consentire videtur.
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