Channel 13: Absolute Must

[Oceanbrew]

I should have been more specific regarding my 'sailing area'. South of downtown Jacksonville the St. Johns River is about 2 miles wide. There is hardly any commercial traffic. And the commercial traffic that does exist is very small. Once you go north of downtown Jacksonville which is the direction you must go to reach the ocean you are in an international shipping lane. It is fairly narrow in many places. Two larger container ships are hard-pressed to pass each other and stay within the channel. Not to mention ships desiring to enter the channel - which require that no other larger vessels be passing by. Because I hardly ever sail in the ocean due to the time required to traverse downtown and the North St. Johns River to reach the ocean before I can begin my voyage I tend to stick to the St. John's. So the very limited scope of rules that I posted previously obviously are specific to my situation. As is channel 13. I mention the fact that in my area channel 13 was an absolute in my original post. I did not say that everyone on the planet should be looking and listening to channel 13. What I think we should do is have a thread dedicated to different cities and what channels commercial traffic usually found on (does one exist already?). That way people going from city to city they can look the thread up and see which channels most commercial traffic would be found on: channels X, Y or Z. The whole point of my post was to show that commercial vessels greatly appreciate communication on their respective commercial channels. Not to argue Colregs, as I do not have them memorized. And, hopefully everyone knows that larger container ships travel at much faster speeds than we think.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Oceanbrew

I should have been more specific regarding my 'sailing area'. South of downtown Jacksonville the St. Johns River is about 2 miles wide. There is hardly any commercial traffic. And the commercial traffic that does exist is very small. Once you go north of downtown Jacksonville which is the direction you must go to reach the ocean you are in an international shipping lane. It is fairly narrow in many places. Two larger container ships are hard-pressed to pass each other and stay within the channel. Not to mention ships desiring to enter the channel - which require that no other larger vessels be passing by. Because I hardly ever sail in the ocean due to the time required to traverse downtown and the North St. Johns River to reach the ocean before I can begin my voyage I tend to stick to the St. John's. So the very limited scope of rules that I posted previously obviously are specific to my situation. As is channel 13. I mention the fact that in my area channel 13 was an absolute in my original post. I did not say that everyone on the planet should be looking and listening to channel 13. What I think we should do is have a thread dedicated to different cities and what channels commercial traffic usually found on (does one exist already?). That way people going from city to city they can look the thread up and see which channels most commercial traffic would be found on: channels X, Y or Z. The whole point of my post was to show that commercial vessels greatly appreciate communication on their respective commercial channels. Not to argue Colregs, as I do not have them memorized. And, hopefully everyone knows that larger container ships travel at much faster speeds than we think.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

A web search will get you a list of what channels are used for what in different locations.

This makes me wonder though, why the FCC or USCG hasn't set a standard to be followed in the entire USA. Why do bridge tenders monitor channel 9 in South Carolina and channel 13 in North Carolina? That's just dumb.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Challenging a boat that's hundreds of times larger and heavier than your boat for the right of way is nothing but stupid. You might be "right" but you might also be "dead right".

We've had this conversation a million times. "Challenging" and "right of way" are simply inapplicable, and harmful concepts here. Listen to Lodesman and to Nigel -- they are professional mariners.

There's no short cut to following the COLREGS. The only time you are even allowed to "just get out of the way", is either before a risk of collision exists in the first place, or after you have a reasonable belief that the give way vessel is not maneuvering. In between those two points, in a crossing situation, you are required to hold course and speed, if you are the stand-on vessel. That is so that the give-way vessel has a chance to work out a solution without your screwing it up with random maneuvers.

Professional mariners on the bridge, when they encounter us amateurs, hate it when we, instead of following the rules, just maneuver willy-nilly. It's dangerous and wrong. You have to read, understand, and follow the COLREGS. There's no substitute. And calling on the VHF is no substitute, either, and is mostly unnecessary when everyone understands and follows the rules.

But this has been said over and over again. /rant

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The only time you are even allowed to "just get out of the way", is either before a risk of collision exists in the first place, or after you have a reasonable belief that the give way vessel is not maneuvering. In between those two points, in a crossing situation, you are required to hold course and speed, if you are the stand-on vessel. That is so that the give-way vessel has a chance to work out a solution without your screwing it up with random maneuvers.

You are "dead" right.

I'm in it for sport/leisure - they are in it for commerce. There are "tons" of ships in my waters. I am way more maneuverable than them.

I change course ~30* early enough so they know I am not a factor to them. Then I maneuver to cut their stern.

It's not "right" but it is safe and courteous.

[kas_1611]

What you have to remember with any large commercial vessel is they will make a tiny adjustment to their course to avoid a collision with you based on your course and speed so if you change either you may force them to have to make a much larger (and potentially dangerous) course correction unnecessarily.

Having sailed across the Straits of Gibraltar, one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, I know from personnel experience that you can not see the adjustment commercial vessels make so don't try to second guess the helmsman/office of the watch/captain.

Keep watch, maintain Ch16 on the radio and remember that unless a commercial vessel is in a TSS/VTS or narrow channel they will take action to avoid a small sailing vessel but you may not be able to tell. 1/2º at 2 miles means they'll miss you by 100's of feet.

Keiron

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

You are "dead" right.

I'm in it for sport/leisure - they are in it for commerce. There are "tons" of ships in my waters. I am way more maneuverable than them.

I change course ~30* early enough so they know I am not a factor to them. Then I maneuver to cut their stern.

It's not "right" but it is safe and courteous.

If you do it before a risk of collision arises, then it is not only safe and courteous, it is correct behavior under Rule 2.

And in general, in most coastal, bay, and harbor situations, recreational sailors can and should prevent crossing situations from ever arising, by staying out of the channels unless there is no commercial traffic. That is safe, courteous, seamanlike, and correct behavior under the Rules.

So far we agree. But if you make such a maneuver after risk of collision arises, then it is not safe and courteous, but foolish and dangerous, and unseamanlike. Because by that time the ship, if it is the stand-on give-way vessel, is already making its own maneuver, which can be effective only if you hold your course and speed as you are obligated to do. Or as is typically the case -- made his maneuver long ago to create a safe CPA with you based on your holding your course and speed, and you simply are not able to perceive it. They call us "WAFIs" exactly because of this kind of behavior, and that is not a compliment. I'm not saying that you are necessarily recommending that, but it's important to be clear.


One of the big problems in all of this for recreational sailors is misunderstanding their own maneuverability. In open water, a slow, small sailboat is in fact far less maneuverable than a fast moving ship. You can change directions quickly, but collision avoidance requires creating a safe CPA, which requires travelling distance, which you cannot do at 5 or 6 knots in the way that a ship travelling at 12 or 18 knots can. Just because you can turn around is meaningless -- it's not the change of direction which is meaningful, it's the change of location, which makes an effective maneuver in open water. And to do that, you need speed. In most cases in open water, you simply cannot just dart out of the way -- because of the relative speed with the ship -- you either follow a systematic approach, or die.

That means that in open water, the relative effectiveness of collision avoidance maneuvers is a direct function of relative speed. It is even the case that at a certain multiple of your speed, there is simply nothing you can do to avoid a collision with a much faster vessel -- you are entirely dependent on him. That is the case with the giant high speed cat ferries in the Channel, for example, which travel at 45 knots. Even if you are the give-way vessel, your maneuvers are completely useless with such a huge difference in speed, and so the fast ferry drivers simply steer around you like playing a video game. They are not violating the Rules -- because even when they are the stand-on vessel, they have the right to maneuver when it is evident that you are not resolving or cannot resolve the situation yourself, and that is clear from the outset.

So believing that you are "far more maneuverable" than a fast moving ship in open water is a dangerous misconception. If the ship is travelling at three times your speed, for example, his maneuver will be three times as effective as anything you can do. On top of that, he has much more powerful means of determining the risk of collision and precisely calculate his CPA with you, and so typically does it long before you are even aware he's there. This is all the more reason for you not to dart around randomly and screw up his solution.


For all these reasons, it is really important to know, understand, and follow the rules, and not just improvise. Talk to a pro sometime (like Lodesman or Nigel on here) if you don't believe me.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So believing that you are "far more maneuverable" than a fast moving ship in open water is a dangerous misconception. If the ship is travelling at three times your speed, for example, his maneuver will be three times as effective as anything you can do. On top of that, he has much more powerful means of determining the risk of collision and precisely calculate his CPA with you, and so typically does it long before you are even aware he's there. This is all the more reason for you not to dart around randomly and screw up his solution.

.

I am on board with most everything you say and maybe this is a misunderstanding but this is baloney.

I get that a ship needs predictability and that's what COLREGS help do.

But a ship in the Singapore straits (ok special rules apply) doing 20 knots needs miles of room to affect a heading change. He also "reportedly" needs 5 miles to stop.

Sure under sail in low winds I can't "dart" out of the way but when I am crossing traffic schemes or there is high commercial traffic I am idling the engine and can be at 6.5 knots in under 3 seconds. I can also make a 180 direction change in less than a minute and a radius of 100 meters or less.

When I say i adjust before ROC exists I do it with a hand bearing compass. I make sure that there is bearing change that results in my passing well astern (at first) knowing his system will resolve a no collision result. As we get closer I will bear in closer to his stern knowing that he won't start any evasive maneuvers (too late for him) but also know I can leave a smaller margin for the cross than he can because I am more maneuverable.

On long passages in open water he is probably tracking me before I see him and he may make adjustments ahead of time. However at that point he doesn't know if I am power or sail and who might be the stand on vessel. He probably assumes I am power until he knows otherwise. If he presumes power and he is the stand on vessel he won't know he's wrong until he has a visual.

I seriously doubt these guys make any early course corrections (i.e. outside 3 miles)

Anyway - I understood everything you said. I just disagree - Peace brother!

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

We've had this conversation a million times. "Challenging" and "right of way" are simply inapplicable, and harmful concepts here. Listen to Lodesman and to Nigel -- they are professional mariners.

There's no short cut to following the COLREGS. The only time you are even allowed to "just get out of the way", is either before a risk of collision exists in the first place, or after you have a reasonable belief that the give way vessel is not maneuvering. In between those two points, in a crossing situation, you are required to hold course and speed, if you are the stand-on vessel. That is so that the give-way vessel has a chance to work out a solution without your screwing it up with random maneuvers.

Professional mariners on the bridge, when they encounter us amateurs, hate it when we, instead of following the rules, just maneuver willy-nilly. It's dangerous and wrong. You have to read, understand, and follow the COLREGS. There's no substitute. And calling on the VHF is no substitute, either, and is mostly unnecessary when everyone understands and follows the rules.

But this has been said over and over again. /rant

Simply because you and I don't agree and you have to have the last word. Repeating yourself over and over will not change my opinion.

There are many folks who share my view that it's safer to just stay out of the way of the large commercial ships. It's self preservation.

[four winds]

Dockhead, I believe you misspoke in this sentence from the third paragraph.... if it is the give way vessel not stand on,, no?

Because by that time the ship, if it is the stand-on vessel, is already making its own maneuver, which can be effective only if you hold your course and speed as you are obligated to do.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I seriously doubt these guys make any early course corrections (i.e. outside 3 miles)

A ship traveling at 15 knots will cover the 3nm you suggest in about 12 minutes.

A ship going 20 knots will cover that in about 9 minutes.

A ship going 25 knots will cover that in about 6 minutes.

You can bet your bottom dollar that they are taking evasive action a lot further out than 3nm

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I am on board with most everything you say and maybe this is a misunderstanding but this is baloney.

I get that a ship needs predictability and that's what COLREGS help do.

But a ship in the Singapore straits (ok special rules apply) doing 20 knots needs miles of room to affect a heading change. He also "reportedly" needs 5 miles to stop.

Sure under sail in low winds I can't "dart" out of the way but when I am crossing traffic schemes or there is high commercial traffic I am idling the engine and can be at 6.5 knots in under 3 seconds. I can also make a 180 direction change in less than a minute and a radius of 100 meters or less.

When I say i adjust before ROC exists I do it with a hand bearing compass. I make sure that there is bearing change that results in my passing well astern (at first) knowing his system will resolve a no collision result. As we get closer I will bear in closer to his stern knowing that he won't start any evasive maneuvers (too late for him) but also know I can leave a smaller margin for the cross than he can because I am more maneuverable.

On long passages in open water he is probably tracking me before I see him and he may make adjustments ahead of time. However at that point he doesn't know if I am power or sail and who might be the stand on vessel. He probably assumes I am power until he knows otherwise. If he presumes power and he is the stand on vessel he won't know he's wrong until he has a visual.

I seriously doubt these guys make any early course corrections (i.e. outside 3 miles)

Anyway - I understood everything you said. I just disagree - Peace brother!

Thanks -- this is an intelligent and interesting comment which makes for an interesting conversation. A good question indeed.

Maybe Lodesman or Nigel will weigh in with much more authority than I have, but consider this:

A ship doesn't need miles to effect a heading change. The rudder goes over and the ship's head goes over, very quickly at 20 knots. The higher the speed, the less rudder angle is needed to achieve a given rate of turn.

IMO standards require most ships to be able to turn in 5 times their length, and to be able to change course according to this formula: α101 ≤ f101(L/V)

See: https://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalP...tyGuide_June06

Most commercial ships are able to achieve a rate of turn of 50 or 60 degrees per minute, so a ship you encounter in open water can usually make a 10 degree course change in 10 or 15 seconds, during which time the ship has moved less than a cable. At 10 miles out, a 10 degree course change will change the point of intersection with you -- your CPA -- by 1.76 miles. He will reach you in 30 minutes from 10 miles away. He will know how to do this at 10 miles out because he has equipment (commercial radar and ARPA set) capable of determining your bearing that accurately, and making that calculation -- unlike the equipment you and I have.

You, on the other hand, at 6 knots, can only move 3 miles altogether in some direction in 30 minutes. If you see him and work out a reasonably accurate CPA when he's 5 miles from CPA, you can only move 1.5 miles. If you start maneuvering when he's 2 miles from CPA, you only have six minutes, and are only able to move 6 cables during that time, in whatever direction. And all of THAT artificially assumes instantaneous calculations -- in fact, with a HBC, you need a series of bearings over time, during which he is getting ever closer.

Now where it becomes interesting is when you consider the means you have, of detecting a risk of collision and determining CPA. You cannot, with a HBC, determine a CPA with accuracy of better than a mile, at 10 miles away. To get half a mile of accuracy at 10 miles would require bearings accurate to 3 degrees, which you can't achieve in a seaway with a normal HBC (compass binocs are somewhat better), and anyway -- that assumes totally constant speed and course of both vessels. Yachts under sail, especially hard on the wind, are very far from constant speed and course, so in reality, with a HBC, you will not have even vaguely accurate information before you're four or five miles out. By this time, if you're really skilled with the HBC, and conditions are reasonably calm, you'll have a cone of possible position of the ship which is a few cables wide. But by the time you're two miles apart, you can only move 6 cables altogether. So the fundamental problem is that it is very difficult for you to know the right way to turn to get out of his way, and in many cases your HBC will not be able to distinguish a bearing change which reflects a reasonable CPA already set up by the ship. Thus very often it's just a crap shoot whether you're dodging towards safety, or unwittingly dodging under his bows. Remember, to be safe, you have to be out of the cone of uncertainty about where he will be at CPA -- that is a much larger area than just his beam. The less accurate is your data, the wider berth you have to give him, in order to be reasonably sure of not getting run down.

That's why you can't just do it on instinct -- has to be a systematic approach. That's why we have the COLREGS!


It's been said before, but AIS is just incredibly valuable for this. Even with radar, you can't do that much better than with a HBC (our recreational radars are very accurate for range, but quite inaccurate what concerns bearing). When I installed AIS on my boat, I was amazed to finally understand what ships are doing in open water, in encounters with us. I never realized that they typically change course about 10 miles out, and that typically they are coming at us with a 1.00 CPA (obviously typical standing orders), which looks like a collision course on a HBC, because at 10 miles out, you can't detect the slow change of bearing at all, represented by a safe 1.00 CPA.



By the way, one other point -- you mentioned behavior of the ship before "having a visual" -- by definition, the steering & sailing rules don't apply when vessels are not in sight of one another. So there's no give way and no stand on vessel in that situation. So he's free to maneuver, and in my experience, and what commercial mariners have told me, is that when they see a leisure vessel on their radar, they take action as early as possible, preferably long before the WAFI sees him. I have heard over and over again -- they don't trust us to know the Rules, and therefore try to maneuver in a way which not only creates a safe CPA, but which makes it hard for us to "dart" into their way -- something they expect us to do. I have heard over and over -- they would like it best of all if we don't even see them, because of the likelihood that we will do something stupid when we do.



My views on this are a result of where I sail -- the English Channel, the world's busiest seaway. Crossing the Channel in a sailboat, something I've done scores of times, seems like being a squirrel running across a busy freeway at rush hour. It undoubtedly distorts my views, just like other people's views are determined by their own experiences. None of this discussion makes any sense to people who sail in bays and coastal areas and have the ability to simply stay out of channels and shipping lanes -- which is absolutely the right thing to do -- in such waters.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by four winds

Dockhead, I believe you misspoke in this sentence from the third paragraph.... if it is the give way vessel not stand on,, no?

Because by that time the ship, if it is the stand-on vessel, is already making its own maneuver, which can be effective only if you hold your course and speed as you are obligated to do.

Yes, correct! Thanks for the correction.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Simply because you and I don't agree and you have to have the last word. Repeating yourself over and over will not change my opinion.

There are many folks who share my view that it's safer to just stay out of the way of the large commercial ships. It's self preservation.

Changing your views is obviously a lost cause!

But other people reading this might have more open minds


Joking aside, of course I completely agree with you, that you should stay out of the way of commercial ships, whenever you can. That may be all you need to do, when you're sailing in places where this is possible because ships are following channels or shipping lanes. All you have to do is stay out of them. Just stay outside the channel where the big boys can't navigate and Bob's your uncle.


What I'm talking about is open water, where it's not always possible to "just stay out of the way". Then you need to know much more than "just stay out of the way". That's all I'm saying.

[wgewaldii]

Originally Posted by rwidman

A web search will get you a list of what channels are used for what in different locations.

This makes me wonder though, why the FCC or USCG hasn't set a standard to be followed in the entire USA. Why do bridge tenders monitor channel 9 in South Carolina and channel 13 in North Carolina? That's just dumb.

You can download Coast Pilot #4 here. It will have telephone numbers of bridge tenders as well.

U.S. Coast Pilots - Navigation Information U.S. Waters

[markpierce]

After crossing the stern of a ship-in-channel, there is the need to avoid erratic sailboats, with me being burdened all the up the strait: