Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-02-2015, 08:52   #31
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
OK, what is a "VTS area" and how is a recreational boater who has been led to believe all vessels must maintain a watch on channel 16 supposed to know where and when they do not?
The large scale charts (charts that cover a smaller area) of the area will designate the boundary of the VTS control areas. There will also be a notation on the chart of it being a VTS controlled area.
__________________

__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 09:05   #32
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
The large scale charts (charts that cover a smaller area) of the area will designate the boundary of the VTS control areas. There will also be a notation on the chart of it being a VTS controlled area.
Well, it's probably safer for a pleasure boat operator to just assume that the commercial boat is not monitoring channel 16 if there is no answer on the first try.

The "fall back" of course is the horn, provided it is loud enough.
__________________

__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 12:10   #33
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
OK, what is a "VTS area" and how is a recreational boater who has been led to believe all vessels must maintain a watch on channel 16 supposed to know where and when they do not?
If you get the excellent US Coast Pilots (download here: United States Coast Pilot®), there are sections in them that explain Vessel Traffic Services (VTS), CVTS, VRM, VMRS and a couple other terms that basically refer to the same thing. Explained also in the relevant CFR: 33 CFR 161 : VESSEL TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT [ 33 CFR 161 ] : (NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS [ 33 CFR ])
Also online at the Navcen: Vessel Traffic Services

Note the commercial guys still need to monitor ch 13, and if they have the resources many will also monitor 16. It behooves the conscientious recreational boater to know if there is a local VTS channel, and if able they should monitor it - not only does it form part of a "proper lookout", but VTS can be a useful resource. For most of the VTS areas there will be radar coverage and traffic management in effect. If for instance you will be planning on crossing a traffic lane, they can let you know if there's something around the corner coming your way. They monitor and record the VHF traffic, as well as on 16 and 13, and can sometimes help deconflict issues between vessels. If you can't seem to hail a vessel, call VTS and tell them the vessel's not responding to your hails - the vessel is not as likely to ignore a hail from VTS.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 15:22   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Boat: Ericson 27, 1978
Posts: 47
Images: 5
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
You've taken excerpts from the rules that only cover narrow channels and TSS - even in these cases, commercial vessels are not given "right of way". The 'not impede' clauses are specific to the allowance of sufficient searoom for deep-draught vessels to navigate. As long as that condition is met, then the steering and sailing rules still apply.

If anyone wants to butt heads with a a commercial vessel, which tend to be larger than the recreational vessels that 99.99% of us own go ahead.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Oceanbrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 15:56   #35
Registered User
 
clownfishsydney's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: Lightwave 38' Catamaran
Posts: 305
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

In Sydney Harbour and Botany Bay the port authority and commercial shipping use channel 12, not 13. Probably varies all over the world as well.
__________________
Michael and Kelly
Catlypso - Web Site
Lightwave 38' cat
clownfishsydney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 16:02   #36
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbrew View Post
Originally Posted by Oceanbrew
That was my interpretation of his explanation. From what I understand rules of the road indicate that commercial vessels have right of way. Obviously a small fishing boat with paying customers doesn't count as what they think commercial vessels are. And, of course size, type of vessel, etc. play an important role in who was right of way.
"No. This is dangerously wrong. If you're going to operate a boat you need to understand the colregs."


Sent from my SGH-I337M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

My response:
Rule 9 - Narrow Channels
-(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. (c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway. (d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway.

Rule 10 - Inland - Steering and sailing rules
- Traffic Separation Schemes: (d)(ii) a vessel may use an inshore traffic zone when en route to or from a port, offshore installation or structure, pilot station or any other place situated within the inshore traffic zone, or to avoid immediate danger. (j) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

So.....in other words: From what I understand rules of the road indicate that commercial vessels have right of way. Obviously a small fishing boat with paying customers doesn't count as what they think commercial vessels are. And, of course size, type of vessel, etc. play an important role in who was right of way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbrew View Post
If anyone wants to butt heads with a a commercial vessel, which tend to be larger than the recreational vessels that 99.99% of us own go ahead.
I will say again that this is a dangerous attitude to take. Let me explain.

First, there's no such thing as a commercial vessel in the colregs. Your quotes of the regs involve large vessels constrained by draft and vessels using a Traffic Separation Scheme. These may or may not be commercial vessels.

Also, you've quoted regulations that cover a tiny percentage of the water out there, but have extrapolated to state that "pleasure vessels must always keep clear of commercial vessels." That's a heck of a stretch.

I can think of plenty commercial vessels under 20m and plenty private vessels over 20m. Whether a vessel is commercial or not doesn't matter at all.

I think, though, for some reason you think commercial and big are the same thing. So let's just talk about big vessels.

It is polite and good seamanship to avoid impeding large vessels. They are big and fast and can't turn well. You are small and slow and quite maneuverable.

However, once a crossing situation actually exists, it is your duty to follow the colregs. This is so that everybody knows what everybody else is going to do. If you are the stand-on vessel, then standing on is your duty so that the give way vessel can plot your trajectory and plan a maneuver that will keep you both safe.

If you want to get out of the way early before a clear crossing situation exists, that's fine. Once there's a crossing situation, though, your attempts to keep clear will just confuse the situation and could cause a collision.

If he starts making a turn to go behind you and you suddenly turn around to get out of his way, then you're back on a collision course, but he's still closing at 20 knots. Now he has less room to try to guess that you might actually stand on this time and swerve back.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 16:03   #37
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbrew View Post
If anyone wants to butt heads with a a commercial vessel, which tend to be larger than the recreational vessels that 99.99% of us own go ahead.
It has nothing to do with butting heads - the rules lay out specifically who gives way and who has to stand on. The biggest complaint that the commercial guys have about the recreational boaters is that they don't do what's expected of them. Standing on is not optional, it's a requirement.
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 16:05   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Boat: Ericson 27, 1978
Posts: 47
Images: 5
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I will say again that this is a dangerous attitude to take. Let me explain.

First, there's no such thing as a commercial vessel in the colregs. Your quotes of the regs involve large vessels constrained by draft and vessels using a Traffic Separation Scheme. These may or may not be commercial vessels.

Also, you've quoted regulations that cover a tiny percentage of the water out there, but have extrapolated to state that "pleasure vessels must always keep clear of commercial vessels." That's a heck of a stretch.

I can think of plenty commercial vessels under 20m and plenty private vessels over 20m. Whether a vessel is commercial or not doesn't matter at all.

I think, though, for some reason you think commercial and big are the same thing. So let's just talk about big vessels.

It is polite and good seamanship to avoid impeding large vessels. They are big and fast and can't turn well. You are small and slow and quite maneuverable.

However, once a crossing situation actually exists, it is your duty to follow the colregs. This is so that everybody knows what everybody else is going to do. If you are the stand-on vessel, then standing on is your duty so that the give way vessel can plot your trajectory and plan a maneuver that will keep you both safe.

If you want to get out of the way early before a clear crossing situation exists, that's fine. Once there's a crossing situation, though, your attempts to keep clear will just confuse the situation and could cause a collision.

If he starts making a turn to go behind you and you suddenly turn around to get out of his way, then you're back on a collision course, but he's still closing at 20 knots. Now he has less room to try to guess that you might actually stand on this time and swerve back.

That's why I listen to channel 13! And, ask!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Oceanbrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 16:06   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Boat: Ericson 27, 1978
Posts: 47
Images: 5
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
It has nothing to do with butting heads - the rules lay out specifically who gives way and who has to stand on. The biggest complaint that the commercial guys have about the recreational boaters is that they don't do what's expected of them. Standing on is not optional, it's a requirement.

That's why I listen to channel 13! And ask!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Oceanbrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 16:17   #40
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbrew View Post
That's why I listen to channel 13! And, ask!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Probably not a bad idea if you don't understand the requirements (and your responsibilities) of the colregs but this step can be skipped when you do, thus leaving the airwaves open for more pressing comms.

We all start the learning curve somewhere
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 17:01   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: SoCal
Boat: Formosa 30 ketch
Posts: 350
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
It has nothing to do with butting heads - the rules lay out specifically who gives way and who has to stand on. The biggest complaint that the commercial guys have about the recreational boaters is that they don't do what's expected of them. Standing on is not optional, it's a requirement.
Personally, I always consider gross tonnage, and get the hell out of the way.

We sail in and out of L.A harbor, and always monitor 13 while dodging tugs, barges, container ships, and such
__________________
Bill Seal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 17:27   #42
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceanbrew View Post
That's why I listen to channel 13! And ask!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
I don't know about where you are, but it's pretty busy around here. If a ferry coming through had to talk to every single boat they were getting near it would drive them nuts. I don't even know how they'd do it:

"OK, which sailboat are you? The white one? The one with the sails? Oh, ok, the one with the guy in the gold speedo steering. OK, you're going to do what now? OK, that works for me. Gee, thanks so much for calling me instead of just following the rules."


By all means, give a call if you feel the situation is ambiguous or you're confused about how to stay safe. Otherwise avoid a crossing situation by acting very early or follow the rules in a crossing situation.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 19:59   #43
Marine Service Provider
 
AnchorageGuy's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wherever the boat is!
Boat: Marine Trader 34DC
Posts: 4,618
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I don't know about where you are, but it's pretty busy around here. If a ferry coming through had to talk to every single boat they were getting near it would drive them nuts. I don't even know how they'd do it:

"OK, which sailboat are you? The white one? The one with the sails? Oh, ok, the one with the guy in the gold speedo steering. OK, you're going to do what now? OK, that works for me. Gee, thanks so much for calling me instead of just following the rules."


By all means, give a call if you feel the situation is ambiguous or you're confused about how to stay safe. Otherwise avoid a crossing situation by acting very early or follow the rules in a crossing situation.
Your scenario may work fine for your ferry. But traveling down the Tombigbee Waterway and meeting a 100+ foot tow with 11 barges, and he takes up almost the entire waterway as he is making a turn, you will want to discuss with him, which side HE wants you to pass on or if he wants you to stand by out of the channel until he makes his maneuvers. The tow operator will very much appreciate that conversation rather than you getting run over by one of his barges. In the course of one day we passed or was passed by 40 tows, most pushing at least 8 or more barges. We don't do this in the shipping lanes of the Chesapeake Bay. But we do this often every day along the Gulf IWW from Brownsville Texas to the Florida panhandle, and along the Mississippi and all of the connecting waterways from Chicago on the Great Lakes to Mobile, Alabama. So yes, the commercial captains do very much want to talk to you. They may respond on 16 or 13. Often they won't respond at all on 13 but will on 16. Other times they will not respond on 16 and will on 13. You need to know what frequencies they operate on along what waterways. And it does not matter what the regulations say. This is how it is in the real world. And this is the difference between an experienced and knowledgeable skipper and someone that just reads the Coast Guard regulations. Chuck
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, ICW Hampton Roads To Key West, The Gulf Coast, The Bahamas

The Trawler Beach House
Voyages Of Sea Trek
AnchorageGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2015, 23:59   #44
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnchorageGuy View Post
Your scenario may work fine for your ferry. But traveling down the Tombigbee Waterway and meeting a 100+ foot tow with 11 barges, and he takes up almost the entire waterway as he is making a turn, you will want to discuss with him, which side HE wants you to pass on or if he wants you to stand by out of the channel until he makes his maneuvers. The tow operator will very much appreciate that conversation rather than you getting run over by one of his barges. In the course of one day we passed or was passed by 40 tows, most pushing at least 8 or more barges. We don't do this in the shipping lanes of the Chesapeake Bay. But we do this often every day along the Gulf IWW from Brownsville Texas to the Florida panhandle, and along the Mississippi and all of the connecting waterways from Chicago on the Great Lakes to Mobile, Alabama. So yes, the commercial captains do very much want to talk to you. They may respond on 16 or 13. Often they won't respond at all on 13 but will on 16. Other times they will not respond on 16 and will on 13. You need to know what frequencies they operate on along what waterways. And it does not matter what the regulations say. This is how it is in the real world. And this is the difference between an experienced and knowledgeable skipper and someone that just reads the Coast Guard regulations. Chuck
We're in luck, Chuck. The colregs apply and the tug and tow is the stand-on vessel. It's your job to not hit him. If you need to use the VHF to figure out how to do that, then by all means do so. Otherwise, you can use sound signals, gesticulate wildly or just do a 180 until you can figure it out.

I think I was very clear in my post that "By all means, give a call if you feel the situation is ambiguous or you're confused about how to stay safe."

I am frankly, offended that you would suggest that I'm not an "experienced and knowledgeable skipper" because I insist that the rules should be followed.

You are not making things safer if you decide to ignore the rules. Maneuvering while you are the stand on vessel or calling every "commercial" skipper you see for a chat about how best to stay out of his way makes things more confusing and more dangerous especially in a crowded area.

I respect those who are making their living on the sea and I'll stay out of their way whenever possible. Once we get too close and are in a clear crossing situation, though, I need to do my duty as an experienced and knowledgeable skipper and follow the rules to avoid a collision.
__________________
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2015, 03:20   #45
Moderator
 
nigel1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Manchester, UK
Boat: Beneteau 473
Posts: 5,184
Re: Channel 13: Absolute Must

Interesting report on what could go wrong when using VHF radio to negotiate a pass.

See Page 7 of this UK publication.

https://www.chirp.co.uk/upload/docs/...DBACK%2037.pdf
__________________

__________________
Nigel
Beneteau 473
Manchester, UK
nigel1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gov Cut to Channel 5 via Hawk Channel SecondWind Atlantic & the Caribbean 2 19-11-2013 20:57
Absolute Newbie - Where to Start ? Reba Monohull Sailboats 26 20-07-2010 15:00
Newbie / Greenhorn / Absolute Beginner :P Hi! Dol Meets & Greets 4 09-08-2009 15:03
Absolute beginners - UK trio Meets & Greets 4 28-03-2009 20:34
Absolute beginner books for Ausssies? Luan The Library 16 29-01-2009 03:33



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:37.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.