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Old 12-01-2019, 16:25   #31
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
So... we can't trust anything has happened that has not been witnessed and/recorded by a person? Do I have that right?

It's worse than that. As soon as the last eye witness died, it never happened:


>No human alive has ever witnessed or recorded.

i.e. Nothing ever happened until somewhere around 1910.
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Old 12-01-2019, 16:30   #32
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Dismiss all of science. Dismiss all of reality. Live in a make-believe world of your own. You have that right.

I bet he is an avid watcher of "Ancient Aliens"
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Old 12-01-2019, 16:48   #33
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

I'd love to reply to each of these postings individually, but haven't the time. Suffice it to say: Science, and scientists, have historically come to many wrong conclusions. While they have reached some conclusions that are correct, "Scientific Facts" are always being updated as new data comes to light, and cherished theories have to be scrapped from time to time. Nobody who is a serious student of science can deny this, unless they're living in a fairyland, where many of you seem to be existing right now. To borrow from Mr DeGrasse Tyson: just because you don't understand magnetic anomalies on the sea floor doesn't mean that millions of years ago the poles reversed and we can be as sure of that as we are that the sun will rise tomorrow.

To StuM: I meant that no person was ever alive to witness a pole reversal and document it. Sorry for the unclarity. And I don't watch TV.
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Old 12-01-2019, 19:52   #34
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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I'd love to reply to each of these postings individually, but haven't the time.
Still would like to hear your explanation of the reversing magnetic particles in the mid ocean.


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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Suffice it to say: Science, and scientists, have historically come to many wrong conclusions. While they have reached some conclusions that are correct, "Scientific Facts" are always being updated as new data comes to light, and cherished theories have to be scrapped from time to time.
Same argument used by creationists to dispute evolution. Doesn't work any better in this case than it does there.
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Old 12-01-2019, 20:06   #35
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

Does this mean I should wait before I replace my chart plotter?
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Old 12-01-2019, 21:26   #36
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Suffice it to say: Science, and scientists, have historically come to many wrong conclusions. While they have reached some conclusions that are correct, "Scientific Facts" are always being updated as new data comes to light, and cherished theories have to be scrapped from time to time. Nobody who is a serious student of science can deny this, unless they're living in a fairyland, where many of you seem to be existing right now. To borrow from Mr DeGrasse Tyson: just because you don't understand magnetic anomalies on the sea floor doesn't mean that millions of years ago the poles reversed and we can be as sure of that as we are that the sun will rise tomorrow.
Not wanting to flog a dead horse, and with all due respect, I think you are misrepresenting the nature of the scientific method and empiricism. In terms of experimentation the scientific method begins with a hypothesis, or "guess" as you may refer to it, but a well-informed one. Then it gets tested. That is the part you referred to as repeatable and verifiable. If under peer review, and successful repetition, the same results are achieved, then the hypothesis will be validated. Does that mean it is "scientific fact?" No, not necessarily, but where did you find the term "scientific fact?" Certainly scientists cling to certain ideas they consider proven, only to find out later that there is more to the story. Einstein's theories have largely been proven correct, and yet he was very uncomfortable with accepting quantum mechanics when it came along even though it did a good, even better, job of explaining things too. Was Einstein "wrong?" Was Sir Isaac Newton "wrong" about gravity? Alfred Wegener was a meteorologist who kept running across evidence for continents having once been joined and based on the evidence present in Earth, not through experimentation, he formulated his theory of continental drift. It was largely rejected though because he could not provide a description of, or evidence for, a mechanism for it. Unfortunately he died before the Atlantic sea floor was mapped, discovering the mid-ocean ridge, and before rock samples were collected from the ridge, which included evidence of magnetic polar reversals emanating out in perfect replication both eastward and westward from the ridge. Once this evidence was accepted as sufficient proof for the mechanism for continental drift, that is sea-floor spreading, his theory was accepted. Is it now "scientific fact?" No, it is just the best theory we have, and it DOES explain things pretty darn well, until we have a theory that builds on it and explains even MORE. Does this lack of definite "facts," or the fact that ideas and explanations (theories) change over time, invalidate science, the scientific method or empiricism? I don't see how. But I am open to evidence for it!
Also, I have never seen a "germ," and I have never seen one make me sick, but I still avoid people who are sneezing and coughing.
The epistemological debate, that is how do we know what we think we know, is relevant and pertinent today, with science being so openly challenged. But this reliance on, and acceptance of, the scientific method and its improvement of our understanding of our world, our universe... our existence, has been around for 300 years. We would all do well not to dismiss it too cavalierly.. or at all!
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Old 12-01-2019, 21:26   #37
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Still would like to hear your explanation of the reversing magnetic particles in the mid ocean.




Same argument used by creationists to dispute evolution. Doesn't work any better in this case than it does there.
I have no explanation for the reversing particles, but not knowing something is OK. Better than grasping at an explanation, ANY explanation, and clinging to it with a religious fervor until another scientist does another study.
I'd be more interested just now in seeing how they arrived at the conclusion that there are reversing magnetic particles in the ocean. Have these been measured multiple times by different people? Peer reviewed? What sort of equipment do they use? Are they falsifying information just to get attention? (that last happens a good deal in the scientific publishing world).
Once convinced that these reversing particles exist, there's still the question of what caused them. And unless someone witnessed them forming and recorded it, any ideas about it are just guesses.
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Old 12-01-2019, 21:37   #38
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Not wanting to flog a dead horse, and with all due respect, I think you are misrepresenting the nature of the scientific method and empiricism. In terms of experimentation the scientific method begins with a hypothesis, or "guess" as you may refer to it, but a well-informed one. Then it gets tested. That is the part you referred to as repeatable and verifiable. If under peer review, and successful repetition, the same results are achieved, then the hypothesis will be validated. Does that mean it is "scientific fact?" No, not necessarily, but where did you find the term "scientific fact?" Certainly scientists cling to certain ideas they consider proven, only to find out later that there is more to the story. Einstein's theories have largely been proven correct, and yet he was very uncomfortable with accepting quantum mechanics when it came along even though it did a good, even better, job of explaining things too. Was Einstein "wrong?" Was Sir Isaac Newton "wrong" about gravity? Alfred Wegener was a meteorologist who kept running across evidence for continents having once been joined and based on the evidence present in Earth, not through experimentation, he formulated his theory of continental drift. It was largely rejected though because he could not provide a description of, or evidence for, a mechanism for it. Unfortunately he died before the Atlantic sea floor was mapped, discovering the mid-ocean ridge, and before rock samples were collected from the ridge, which included evidence of magnetic polar reversals emanating out in perfect replication both eastward and westward from the ridge. Once this evidence was accepted as sufficient proof for the mechanism for continental drift, that is sea-floor spreading, his theory was accepted. Is it now "scientific fact?" No, it is just the best theory we have, and it DOES explain things pretty darn well, until we have a theory that builds on it and explains even MORE. Does this lack of definite "facts," or the fact that ideas (theories) change over time, invalidate science, the scientific method or empiricism? I don't see how. But I am open to evidence for it!
Also, I have never seen a "germ," and I have never seen one make me sick, but I still avoid people who are sneezing and coughing.
The epistemological debate, that is how do we know what we think we know, is relevant and pertinent today, with science being so openly challenged. But this reliance on, and acceptance of, the scientific method and its improvement of our understanding of our world, our universe... our existence, has been around for 300 years. We would all do well not to dismiss it too cavalierly.. or at all!
You just took the long way around to say that you agree with me: anything not repeatable under controlled conditions is a guess. Call it a theory if you want to, it's guessing. And historically a lot of those guesses are wrong. I have no problem with scientific inquiry, or with the study of the natural world. But they are foolish who blindly place their faith in whatever the scientists tell them, and denigrate those who will not jump on the bandwagon of the latest scientific fad.
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Old 12-01-2019, 21:41   #39
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

I'd respectfully ask you to read that again. I am trying to explain that theories are explanations that successfully, and repeatedly, explain and predict our experiences in this thing we call life, and the natural world. They are not guesses.
I am not saying people put "faith" in what scientists say. Scientists use discoveries, based on verifiable evidence, then go beyond what was discovered to advance knowledge and use it in new ways. Sometimes the discoveries lead to tragic results, like the atomic bomb.
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Old 12-01-2019, 21:48   #40
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

I have recently begun reading the works of Dr. Atul Gawande (Being Mortal) who also writes for the New Yorker. The following is from a graduation speech in 2016 entitled, The Mistrust of Science.

"Science is... a commitment to a systematic way of thinking, an allegiance to a way of building knowledge and explaining the universe through testing and factual observation. The thing is, that isn’t a normal way of thinking. It is unnatural and counterintuitive. It has to be learned. Scientific explanation stands in contrast to the wisdom of divinity and experience and common sense. Common sense once told us that the sun moves across the sky and that being out in the cold produced colds. But a scientific mind recognized that these intuitions were only hypotheses. They had to be tested."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...ust-of-science
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Old 12-01-2019, 23:18   #41
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
I'd be more interested just now in seeing how they arrived at the conclusion that there are reversing magnetic particles in the ocean. Have these been measured multiple times by different people? Peer reviewed? What sort of equipment do they use? Are they falsifying information just to get attention? (that last happens a good deal in the scientific publishing world).
As someone who has worked (albeit peripherally) in the field of palaeomagnetism ... I find this beyond insulting ... my contribution may be incredibly small, but the "they" that you are talking about includes me.
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Old 12-01-2019, 23:33   #42
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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As someone who has worked (albeit peripherally) in the field of palaeomagnetism ... I find this beyond insulting ... my contribution may be incredibly small, but the "they" that you are talking about includes me.
All of us who have labored in the fields of science stand insulted by these pronouncements. But for an insult to have much impact, it must come from someone of substance. I view such "insults" as roughly equivalent to the fan in the bleachers saying rude things about the umpire.

Shrug it off, mate!

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Old 12-01-2019, 23:41   #43
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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All of us who have labored in the fields of science stand insulted by these pronouncements. But for an insult to have much impact, it must come from someone of substance. I view such "insults" as roughly equivalent to the fan in the bleachers saying rude things about the umpire.

Shrug it off, mate!

Jim
Ordinarily that would be true, but these days the insults are having more impact due to fact that some of those making them are in positions of great power, determining policy, regulations and legislation... at least around here anyway.
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Old 13-01-2019, 00:10   #44
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

Some comedy gold going on here.
Waiting for the flat earthers to appear to tell us there are no poles
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Old 13-01-2019, 00:21   #45
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Re: Can the charts keep up?

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Ordinarily that would be true, but these days the insults are having more impact due to fact that some of those making them are in positions of great power, determining policy, regulations and legislation... at least around here anyway.
Don, that's a sadly true observation, one that bothers me a great deal... even from down here in Tasmania.

One shudders to extrapolate.

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