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Old 06-01-2016, 09:13   #31
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Thanks, Capt Nemo...

Yes they are well underway with the bridge replacement. They've already completed the another bridge a bit further out on the Belt in record time. This one is costing them more because all the marinas in Mill Basin got together and complained that their planned 50ft bridge wouldn't be good for business, so they are making it 60ft at an additional cost of 1 million dollars per extra foot of height. That's according to the guys at the boat yard at least.

I am OK with a mooring, and you're right that closer proximity to real sailing is a huge plus. The marina in Gravesend has that advantage as well but no moorings, practically no services and a pricey rate. I live in Windsor Terrace, Brooklyn and I don't have a car at the moment so Nassau County is not a good option. I did enjoy sailing to Long Beach in my last boat, though. Sheepshead bay could be great, actually. It's definitely worth another more careful comparison so I will start calling around for rates. 35 per foot sounds pretty good to me. I can still keep it at my old boat yard in the off season.
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Old 06-01-2016, 09:29   #32
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

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Originally Posted by hrsail920 View Post
I watched the video, very impressive. But, how do you get the initial listing of the boat?

I'm not sure but I have a guess. I think they let out enough halyard so that the bags hang by the stern and scoop water even when the boat is upright, then they motor in a tight circle around the bags while tightening the halyard. Taking in the halyard cranks the masthead over instead of lifting the bags if they are heavy enough, and with the helm hard over the force of the bags moves from the stern up to the beam. Once they get the heel they want, they stop cranking and straighten out the helm. The fact that the bags skim in the water a bit is part of the plan, since if they sink any lower there will be less weight on the halyard and the mast will straighten up until they are skimming again. That way the bags can be heavier than necessary and they will still keep the boat at a stable heel. When they're all done all they have to do is let out enough halyard to take the weight off the masthead.
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Old 06-01-2016, 10:23   #33
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

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Thanks again, Reed. Since you're being so generous with your opinions I'll keep asking... How about the Rafiki 37?

I'm well aware of the teak deck issues on all these older boats and I wouldn't consider a teak deck unless it passed the survey with flying colors. I don't mind maintenance that I can do myself but I definitely don't want a boat with any serious underlying weaknesses.

Also, any more boats that you think are missing from my list so far? My basic criteria are that it be heavy, comfortable and bluewater capable, 35 to 40 feet, full keel or very very robust fin, very sturdy with no serious build issues, with a strong preference for a cutter rig. The Crealock 37 and Hans Christian 38 also look good but I'm a little less optimistic about finding a decent one in my price range, which is about 50-75k. The Morgan 382/383/384 is another thought, not my favorite but it's on the cheaper side so I might find a pristine one that's well equipped for offshore.

Any obvious boats missing from consideration?
Almost any full or modified cutaway full keel boats were usually well built back in the 70s-80s. Ideally look for lead ballast, deck stepped mast(s), keel hung or skeg hung rudders, and a real bilge sump. At 75k you should be able to find very nice cruising boat, even a hans christian. If your willing to go a bit larger, the 41 and 43 foot hans christians often sell for less than the 33 foot hc and are real nice boats, especially the 41 with the full keel. Asking prices are often misleading. a lot of cruising boats nowadays sit around for years with unreasonable asking prices. The market for long distance sailboats has shrunk enormously over the past 20 years. The current fashion for light,fast, and low maintenance day boats has created great deals in cruisers. So find a boat you can love, and make an offer you can live with. Make it too low and you piss off the seller's dealer.
BTW: boat brokers really do not care whether they sell their client's boat or not if that boat is in storage at their yard and are making monthly incomes off the space rentals. A lot of brokers do not want to dicker about a boat and often will not even communicate your offer to the seller if they feel its too low, even if the seller would jump at your offer. Lots of experience with this situation.
If you got the time and inclination, find out when the listing is about to expire and who the owner is(state and federal registration by hull number makes this easy). Contact the owner before seeing the boat. Dealers usually have a requirement of a year or more after listing expires for collecting their 10% if they have shown the boat to a potential buyer and that buyer subsequently buys the boat after the listing expires.
Having said all that, i still prefer going through a qualified broker, and there are some really good ones out there.
However, nothing, but nothing beats just wandering through boat yards seeing what is available and talking to folks in the yards. Do this in the springtime when things get unwrapped. Good luck.
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Old 07-01-2016, 09:58   #34
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Nemo, I stopped by the Sheepshead Bay Yacht Club yesterday and it seems like a great option. They were super nice and it would give me the advantages of a clubhouse, pool, bar, weekly regattas, and closer proximity to sailing. I would be paying a bit more for a mooring than I would for a slip at my old boat yard, which makes it pretty much an even toss up as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad to have multiple options, though, and not be limited by mast height in my selection of a new boat. Thanks for the guidance on that.

Reed, that's all really helpful advice. From what I've gathered elsewhere, it seems like 90% of the asking price is a reasonable place to start with an offer. Depending on how eager the seller is, that may be acceptable or they may counter with 95% or higher of the asking price. Does this sound like an accurate generalization to you?

But if the boat seems overpriced or I've seen it sitting for a while, is it acceptable to offer even less than 90%? As you said, some boats seem WAY overpriced, but as you said I'm likely to offend someone if I offer 60k on an 95k asking price. Where to draw that line is the question I guess...

Not sure how to see how long a boat has been listed on yachtworld or when the listing will expire. Access to the info on soldboats.com would be invaluable, but I guess there's a reason they don't let everyone see that.Comparison between boats and watching prices get reduced over time is the best option I have at this point...
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Old 07-01-2016, 10:09   #35
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

OrangeCrush, 95% is way too much to offer. Figure for each year the boat has been on the market, discount the price by 5-10%. If the boat has not moved for 4 years, offer half price. If its been sitting around for 10 years, offer 25% of price. Make firm offer conditioned on survey. Then walk away. Hinckley had a warehouse full of used Pilot 35's unsold since lord knows when. One which i was interested in, a yawl, listed at $125k and sold for $75k. Perfect condition. That is typical even for the best of boats. The market is a buyer's market and will be for quite some time.
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Old 07-01-2016, 13:21   #36
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Reed,

Thanks, very helpful again. One question... Since I will need to see the boat myself before I make a firm offer (contingent on survey), it makes things a little tricky with boats that aren't too close by. I would like to expand my search beyond the New York area, but if I need to fly somewhere to see it before I can make an offer, it makes it likely that I'm wasting my airfare if I'm not willing to pay anywhere near the asking price. Do you think it's ever advisable to make an offer sight-unseen with the survey as the only fail-safe? I'm pretty sure your answer will be no, but if there is another way of approaching this process that I'm not thinking of please let me know. Is there any other way to get a feel for their flexibility on price without making a firm offer?

I do have summers free to get the boat from wherever it is to New York, so it would be great to be able to search the entire East coast for the right boat. I just can't see myself flying to visit a $100k boat if I'm not willing to pay more than $70k, for example, even if it has been on the market for a while.

Jack
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Old 07-01-2016, 13:40   #37
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

OC, don't worry about offending a seller with a low offer. You ain't proposing marriage nor trying to establish a friendship. If the vendor is offended, well, that's too bad for him. He can wait for a "nicer" customer while you take your money elsewhere.

Or he can grit his teeth and accept the low-ball offer!

Jim
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Old 07-01-2016, 15:18   #38
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

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Reed,

Thanks, very helpful again. One question... Since I will need to see the boat myself before I make a firm offer (contingent on survey), it makes things a little tricky with boats that aren't too close by. I would like to expand my search beyond the New York area, but if I need to fly somewhere to see it before I can make an offer, it makes it likely that I'm wasting my airfare if I'm not willing to pay anywhere near the asking price. Do you think it's ever advisable to make an offer sight-unseen with the survey as the only fail-safe? I'm pretty sure your answer will be no, but if there is another way of approaching this process that I'm not thinking of please let me know. Is there any other way to get a feel for their flexibility on price without making a firm offer?

I do have summers free to get the boat from wherever it is to New York, so it would be great to be able to search the entire East coast for the right boat. I just can't see myself flying to visit a $100k boat if I'm not willing to pay more than $70k, for example, even if it has been on the market for a while.

Jack
There is an art to negotiating prices, and with boats this is very important to get the best deal. You really do not want to piss off every one since boats are very personal to most folks and dealers are in a power position(it will sell eventually attitude). Low balling really does not work, especially if you really want the boat and have to come back with a revised offer. They got you by your you know what.
Unfortunately, pictures of boats do not show the reality, which often is much much worse. Secondly, any decent broker will not tell you beforehand how flexible a seller may be other than willing to consider all offers(meaning lets see your money first).
We have hired a surveyor to look at a boat for us that was on the west coast. Not to do a survey but just to take a look and take some pictures and give us his impressions. Cost about $200. More or less depending on distance traveled. We walked away when he found a significant crack in the bilge.

Otherwise, its really a long slog to run around the country looking at potential buys. Basic fact of life, go visit lots of boatyards in your area and see what is for sale. Really is the best way to buy a boat. Plus lots of boatowners are always borderline willing to sell and if you wander the yards, chances are someone will talk to someone who will mention some boat for sale that fits your specs.

Last tip. If you do the boatyard search, and we always found that a fun way to spend weekends, make a batch of business type cards with your name, number, etc and what your looking for to leave with folks, tuck into boat companionways, and the like. About a 100 should do initially. That worked for us twice in 40 years.
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Old 07-01-2016, 16:17   #39
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Orange-
If you are going to be investing time in road trips (or airfare) I would suggest you plan to take some 4-day weekends or some vacation days and the before you go out, call up several brokers in the area and make some appointments, perhaps one AM and one PM, to see more than one boat while you are there. And there's nothing wrong with letting a broker know "I came down to look at a couple of boats". It just might remind them that there's always competition.(G)
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Old 07-01-2016, 16:47   #40
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

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Orange-
If you are going to be investing time in road trips (or airfare) I would suggest you plan to take some 4-day weekends or some vacation days and the before you go out, call up several brokers in the area and make some appointments, perhaps one AM and one PM, to see more than one boat while you are there. And there's nothing wrong with letting a broker know "I came down to look at a couple of boats". It just might remind them that there's always competition.(G)
Well, throwing mud into someone's eye is probably not the best way to get them motivated to help you. The younger generation do not seem well versed in how to conduct themselves in a businesslike fashion. Been a real issue with my company in recent times.
Better to pick out a boat you want to see, contact a licensed broker who has the listing and also ask them if they know of other boats you might be interested in seeing. Works best in big boating towns like Tampa, etc. Older the broker, probably the better the service. A lot of the old timers really like what they do and love being around boats; the young brokers usually are starving and have that "lean and hungry look."
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Old 07-01-2016, 17:18   #41
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Reed,
Letting a salesman (who is NOT your friend, he is your business opponent in exactly the same way that the Giants and the Steelers are) know that you will be looking at other boats is not throwing mud in his eye. You're not insulting him, he's got an incentive to say "You know, I've got something else..." especially if you ask him in advance.
Boats, unlike houses, are not all on an "MLS" service and every broker doesn't have access to the same inventory.
Just as every new car salesman KNOWS that everyone who walks through the front door is probably comparison shopping--which is why their sales manager has told them that no one leaves until the manager comes over to ask "What can I do to make this ale today?"--a boat broker should not feel insulted by being told that you know there is competition and you'll be looking at it.
If he's insulted that easily, he's not a businessman and he's not a good salesman. A good salesman would ask "What else are you looking at?" and try to make sure he either had a more suitable boat, or he called his client and said "Hey, I've got a buyer but you've REALLY got to come down ten grand to do it, no fooling."


Throwing mud in his eye would be saying "Yeah, there's a sistership for five grand less just up the coast, but the broker there says he can probably get it down fifteen grand, so I want to see if the condition is anywhere near as good."


That's arguably insulting. Letting the man know that you have unspecified other sights to see, and that's he's going to have to WORK to make his sale? No, that's just fair warning, and an invitation for him to sit at the bargaining table.


A real salesman likes nothing more than to know you are a REAL buyer, not just a tire kicker, and that you ARE going to buy something, preferably TODAY. That's just motivation to get out from behind the desk and WORK.
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Old 07-01-2016, 17:27   #42
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Oh, whatever. Professional brokers are professionals. They can offer valuable advice, contacts, and help. Treat them thus. Its also a rather small world and brokers know each other in their region, and sometimes well beyond.

No one wants to deal with a pushy, demanding, and commanding buyer. Just not worth the effort. The prevailing attitude is that a "looker" is probably someday a "buyer". The more you know what your looking for, the better able they are to help you.

Most folks know that "low ballers" usually are losers who waste people's time.
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Old 07-01-2016, 17:33   #43
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

Hello thread drift......one thing to also consider regarding air draft when you are talking close clearances is water, fuel, persons and gear. On most 35-40' boats, it may not make a lot of difference but two-hundred gallons of water and maybe 50 gallons of fuel, five or six persons plus provisions, extra gear etc might conceivably lower your waterline a few inches (maybe? I don't know but it would certainly help)--and vice verse--which might cause some trouble. I am sure that some readers or naval architects could make such a calculation but we could be talking well over a ton of deadweight on a boat that might otherwise weigh about 15-20,000 pounds??? Any thoughts?
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Old 07-01-2016, 19:29   #44
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

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Nemo, I stopped by the Sheepshead Bay Yacht Club yesterday and it seems like a great option. They were super nice and it would give me the advantages of a clubhouse, pool, bar, weekly regattas, and closer proximity to sailing. I would be paying a bit more for a mooring than I would for a slip at my old boat yard, which makes it pretty much an even toss up as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad to have multiple options, though, and not be limited by mast height in my selection of a new boat. Thanks for the guidance on that.
Glad to be helpful. I've heard good things about SBYC, but never considered it due to living in South Nassau. Getting there from where I am is a pain. Well, actually getting anywhere from where I am is a pain! If you choose to go there, I'm certain you'll find its worth the money simply for the fact you will use your boat a lot more. When you can be sailing in a few minutes, you'll go out a lot more, even if it's just for an hour or two. My old marina was 45 minutes to the bridge plus at the time, the bridge was only opening every hour, then every four hours after 4 pm. You didn't want to miss the bridge. It made going out a little stressful, had to be off the dock by 10 am to get in a decent days sail. My new marina is a lot closer, and I go out way more, and I only have to worry about not coming in an hour on either side of dead low tide. As for the bridge, I just need to get there by 30 minutes after sunset to have enough light to see the bridge leafs, it's a tight fit.
[IMG]blob:https://drive.google.com/22c04b2c-ddd9-408c-bfdc-4d414d7ba412[/IMG]

One somewhat negative thing I will say about it Sheepshead Bay... you don't use the motor for very long. Looking at they types of boats you want, you may want to consider a day tank or a polishing set up. My friend with they Tayana 37 never even came close to using all the fuel in his tank over the course of the season. There was more than a few times he had issues related to old diesel and biological growth. Though the best solution is to go cruising somewhere and use the fuel. Also, make sure you motor sail long enough for the engine to reach operating temp on the day sails.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 07-01-2016, 20:19   #45
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Re: Calculating ACTUAL bridge clearance

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