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Old 08-04-2012, 22:33   #76
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Re: Buy paper charts?

Shrimp and Halibut charts? That's what I'm talkin' about.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:31   #77
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Re: Buy paper charts?

My error earlier was that I said the "breaking strain" of G40 is twice that of proof coil, when I meant to write that the "working load" is twice. Proof coil is 1300 lbs and G40 is 2600 pounds.
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Old 09-04-2012, 06:45   #78
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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My error earlier was that I said the "breaking strain" of G40 is twice that of proof coil, when I meant to write that the "working load" is twice. Proof coil is 1300 lbs and G40 is 2600 pounds.
I think you want this post moved to
Is my chain rode too small?

not enough sleep ?

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Old 09-04-2012, 07:03   #79
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Re: Buy paper charts?

Not enough coffee!
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Old 10-04-2012, 00:41   #80
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Re: Buy paper charts?

All the most updated charts of US waters can be downloaded for free. (our tax dollars at work) Put them on a thumb drive and take them to kinkos and you can get black and white charts printed for $4.00 each good for back ups for electronic and affordable.
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:58   #81
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Re: Buy paper charts?

Electronic charts are only as reliable as the weakest link in your electrical system...electricity and saltwater just don't mix. As much as I like my high tech gadgets, I am still more comfortable with "hard copy" charts...about $30 or $6 for 13"x19" 34% scale "pocket charts" PocketChart Product Description
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:07   #82
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Again this debate descends into nonsense. I don't think any sailor here would sail without some form of chart backup. Yet paper advocates continuously jump on people and moralise.

Yes of course we all agree. But there are issues for some of us.

Dave
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Old 10-04-2012, 03:14   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFish

Dave,

It's an interesting argument. I feel your pain as I have to deal with this every time I go to Europe to sail or when I'm in the Caribbean.

This is a problem you and your fellow yachtsmen should take up with your local governments. Producing raster and vector charts for your respective navies has been something you've been paying for with your tax dollars for a very long time. From a commerce standpoint there are many other additional economic benefits to providing detailed information to mariners at low to no cost.

It's noted in the history of the US Coast Survey, “the Survey is considered to have been one of the major birthplaces of modern American science, including many disciplines not generally associated with geodesy and hydrology. Its creation is a cornerstone of the rapid growth of science and technology and of the development of natural resources for commercial use in the United States.”

I believe that our charts became free as a result of a Freedom of Information Act request many years ago, although I could have been misinformed on this.

It was also determined that cost was a significant barrier to use of critical navigation resources and the growing cost of search and rescue. Combined with the militarization of the US Coast, which had traditionally been a part of the US Department of Commerce until it was hijacked, first for the war on drugs (give me a f'ing break) and now this ridiculous 'war on terror' (but don't get me started on that one).

So, electronic delivery as made it much easier to get charts into the hands of mariners. Printing by the US Printing Office was a costly endeavor and I'm sure it was revenue negative the entire history of the printed chart (heavily subsidized by the government as they are necessary for maritime commerce). So why not just create digital raster and vector variants and put them online? They HAVE to make them for the Navy anyway.

A French report noted, "When you consider a helicopter costs around 2500 Euros per hour and a search and rescue could take several days and involve hundreds of trained personnel in the worst case..."

This surely puts this into the 'money saved' column.

It's up to you to lobby your own government, then you can enjoy all the benefits of low/no cost navigation as we do here in the US and our territories.
I agree we need on this side of the pond to lobby to get that. In particular getting the UKHO onside would be a big win ( mind you it is being considered, but with current austerity I doubt it). Arguments advanced here refer to the widespread availability of electronic charts, in fact UKHO recently removed some leisure orientated paper products. Equally it's getting harder and harder to get them. I how use a speciality chart agent but that means time and pre planning. I agree print on demand would be great. No matter what we say, the arguments for electronic only charts get louder.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:49   #84
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Re: Buy paper charts?

My main concern is the relability and/or reliance on electronics in a marine enviroment, not just vour chart plotter but batteries, charging system and every conection along the way. Coastal cruising is one thing...at sea is completely different.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:49   #85
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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My main concern is the relability and/or reliance on electronics in a marine enviroment, not just vour chart plotter but batteries, charging system and every conection along the way. Coastal cruising is one thing...at sea is completely different.
I believe the electronics and electrics today are very reliable. All the electronics that we got with the boat is still here. And we have never had fails beyond the point of a fuse, a bulb or an ailing battery that had to be isolated from the bank.

Sure, in my sailing works, I witnessed dramatic failures of electrics / electronics. But 9/10 times they were attributable to the owner's going over the top with things while having nil understanding of their boat's systems and, less often perhaps, complete lack of back-ups.

So, from my perspective, the reliability is there.

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Old 10-04-2012, 16:43   #86
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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I believe the electronics and electrics today are very reliable. All the electronics that we got with the boat is still here. And we have never had fails beyond the point of a fuse, a bulb or an ailing battery that had to be isolated from the bank.

Sure, in my sailing works, I witnessed dramatic failures of electrics / electronics. But 9/10 times they were attributable to the owner's going over the top with things while having nil understanding of their boat's systems and, less often perhaps, complete lack of back-ups.

So, from my perspective, the reliability is there.

b.
A rule I like to follow is "Any system or component the failure of which puts you or your boat at risk should be examined and/or backed up".
I sailed from Bermuba to Norfolk Va with no power at all, for the want of a part that was not available in Bermuda.....it's different if you are near a big city and technian in the states.
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Old 10-04-2012, 16:55   #87
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Re: Buy paper charts?

When I was down in the San Blas Islands of Panama for the summer I met many people who had been struck by lightning and lost all electronics onboard, and even most electrics too. One fellow was in a group of five boats struck one night and they all lost everything. I had a very close strike that sounded like someone just shorted out my batteries with a wrench when it hit next to us, and there was enough voltage flying around that several of my instruments that were turned off popped on. I also met lots of folks that had lost chartplotters and computers due to other failures. On our boat we had two computer failures due to hard drives going out. Having a single back up to your electronic charts is not sufficient IMHO. For long distance cruising I think you need a minimum of three electronic chart plotters and/or paper charts.
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Old 10-04-2012, 17:30   #88
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Why three chart plotter? Either they are all going to get zapped by the emp from the lightening or they aren't. If you have a handheld gps with fresh batteries installed before passage in a waterproof bag that protects you from normal electronic failure. And you can always have another gps in your ditch bag as well for triple redundancy.

If youve taken a near or direct hit you can count your electronic bits goodbye, as it's a dice roll whether they are all screwed or not, and there is nothing you can do that really works to protect them.

I always use paper, partly cause thats what i cut my teeth on sailing and i feel comfortable with it, but more because I find my chart plotter and radar are energy suckers and only turn them on when near or approaching land and once a day on passage because I bloody hate running the engine on passage to charge batteries.
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Old 10-04-2012, 18:10   #89
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
A rule I like to follow is "Any system or component the failure of which puts you or your boat at risk should be examined and/or backed up".
I sailed from Bermuba to Norfolk Va with no power at all, for the want of a part that was not available in Bermuda.....it's different if you are near a big city and technian in the states.
Yep. It is a very good rule. My rule for jobs is BYO. A battery powered Garmin 72 is very easy to stow in my travel bag. Sure it sounds silly but I hate the look I get from owners of big and expensive boats when I ask them what back-ups they have. Very often they have none because they think that a USD 5k piece of equipment cannot fail.

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Old 10-04-2012, 18:46   #90
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
A rule I like to follow is "Any system or component the failure of which puts you or your boat at risk should be examined and/or backed up".
I sailed from Bermuba to Norfolk Va with no power at all, for the want of a part that was not available in Bermuda.....it's different if you are near a big city and technian in the states.
Yep. It is a very good rule. My rule for jobs is BYO. A battery powered Garmin 72 is very easy to stow in my travel bag. Sure it sounds silly but I hate the look I get from owners of big and expensive boats when I ask them what back-ups they have. Very often they have none because they think that a USD 5k piece of equipment cannot fail.

b.
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