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Old 07-04-2012, 00:00   #16
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Reliability is there. If still worried, get at least one unit that will run off the internal battery if the boat power is gone. With two power-independent systems onboard, only a ligtening strike can wipe you out.

b.
Or an alternator failure or a battery failure or any host of other electrical problems you could encounter.

In the US you can get the RNC's for free and print them out one sheet at a time in black and white at Fedex/Kinkos for $4 a sheet. Seems like a prudent backup to me.

I do this often and always leave the dock with up to date charts for where I'm cruising. When in Canada I have to bite the bullet and pay for them over the counter.

Seems the money saved when one taxpayer funded search-and-rescue is avoided offsets any loss of revinue from chart sales.. just a thought.
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:08   #17
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
There is nothing like spreading out a 3' by 4' smaller scale chart to do some passage planning. A 8" or 10" screen is just not the same.

I do have electronic charts on my phone, my handheld GPS and my netbook.
+1

Exactly the same here. I have multiple redundant plotters so not concerned about reliability, and would never want to be without a plotter now (although I sailed for decades without them).

But I would never sail without paper charts, either. I don't think you can get properly oriented without them. Being properly oriented -- having a thorough visualization of where you're going and what is around along the way -- is fundamental to good seamanship, IMHO. Maybe some people can, but I cannot get that from a screen.
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Old 07-04-2012, 22:01   #18
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Re: Buy paper charts?

You have to remember that not all paper are equal. Some may have been drawn up a 100 years ago. And as electronic could be made from old paper charts that applys to them as well. So you must use all your sensors and senses at all times.
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Old 07-04-2012, 22:09   #19
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Re: Buy paper charts?

I won't go to sea without paper charts. Even when I am crossing an ocean, I put my position on the paper chart at least once a day.

I do use electronic charts, but the feel is different with electronics. It has more of a video game feel, and when those electrons disappear for whatever reason, I am glad to have the paper charts on board.

Lots of people would be in big trouble if their electronics went down. They don't even know how to do a DR plot or do non-electronic navigation. People who grow up using only electronics may never develop the skills they need to have when the electronics go down.
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Old 07-04-2012, 22:31   #20
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Re: Buy paper charts?

Bah! I have a dozen small scale paper charts. Almost never look at them. It's OpenCPN all the way. Before I depart on a passage I do make some notes about harbors and hazards along the route so if the electronics quit I have a fighting chance with whatever is left. Being an old timer I also tend to notice things like which evening star my destination is under. What language the flotsam is in.
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Old 07-04-2012, 22:36   #21
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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Originally Posted by maxingout View Post
I won't go to sea without paper charts. Even when I am crossing an ocean, I put my position on the paper chart at least once a day.

I do use electronic charts, but the feel is different with electronics. It has more of a video game feel, and when those electrons disappear for whatever reason, I am glad to have the paper charts on board.

Lots of people would be in big trouble if their electronics went down. They don't even know how to do a DR plot or do non-electronic navigation. People who grow up using only electronics may never develop the skills they need to have when the electronics go down.
I could not agree more. I'm in my 40's and my father raised me on the water, running fathom lines with a lead, checking the bottom in an anchorage before you dropped one of two or three anchors, plotting running DR and fixes on paper every hour on watch.

Those skills are not being acquired by the navigators of tomorrow. It's sad, because I know with certainty where I am regardless of what some video game tells me and there's security in that.

Maybe I'm just set in my ways or some old romantic, but when my kids are aboard I am never worried.
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Old 07-04-2012, 22:56   #22
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Re: Buy paper charts?

I have 2 hand held non plotter GPS's, and the needed paper charts for the cruise. I use these for all my cruiseing. Thats all I need. Connie has her Capts program with all the charts needed for the world ! LOL and I do ck hers against mine everyday! she has now down loaded Open CPN and will give it a try to see if she prefers it or will continue with her Capt set up ! she has had it for 15 / 20 yrs and is very used to it ! we will see ! I personaly like my old style of navagating, with a noon site and a star site sometimes just to keep up with my skills with a sextant. always good to have all the back up you can have and paper charts are the place to START At least thats my way, do things the way you like ! I always have LOL
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Old 08-04-2012, 00:20   #23
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Re: Buy paper charts?

I always have paper charts aboard. I also always have a sextant, timepiece and almanac when doing a passage. Murphy's law is one of the constants in navigation. It's always foolish not to use all available (and practical) methods to cross check against each other. Especially the Mk I human eyeball.
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:17   #24
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In my case sailing the European and Atlantic med coasts etc, the situation is not as clear cut. Firstly to carry charts to adequately cover say a trip from Southampton to Nice. I'd have to carry 100s. This costs a fortune, ( an average admiralty or imray is now at 20-30 ukú ) then I'd have to get updates from several national hydrographic offices all in a local language ( sometimes). Next time you startup a plotter look at the sheer number of charts referenced. Then to cover the med fully the charts would cost more then the boat !! In other areas getting hold of paper charts is almost impossible ( I remember trying to get a detailed chart of la gomera, that was fun ( the casa de mappa is now a tourist office !!)

As a consequence I now carry a set of Imray charts, while these cover the areas , they are not that detailed in certain cases. They are a backup as long as you want to enter the harbours they decide to detail. I also carry pilot books to fill in the gaps. You can get local charts of the areas typically in the chandleries of large yacht centres, outside that good luck. Then you end up as I have over the years with a right hodge lodge of admiralty, Imray, SHOM , and some Spanish and italian charts all quite tricky to update ( Imrays are very tricky as the paper is waterproof and resists pen ink) ( I've taken to glueing in addendums in list form)

Outside that I reply on my chart plotter and in recent years have greatly benefitted from having electronic charts of every harbour I pass , now planning bolt holes is much easier. ( or just simple changes of plan). I update my electronic charts as frequently as the manufacturer release new updated usually once or twice yearly.

There's a reason so many cruises take black and white copies ( illegally) of charts in this area. I dislike the practice.

It's all very well reciting a US centric experience, where charts are cheap to free, available from one source and easily updatable, it's not as simple elsewhere. All I can say is thank god for electronic charts or more correctly thank god they collect all the data in one place.


Ps I carry a sextant , never had to use it in anger. Anyway you need virtually no charts to navigate offshore , it's to approach land thats where it gets necessary.
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:29   #25
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Re: Buy paper charts?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

(...) Firstly to carry charts to adequately cover say a trip from Southampton to Nice. I'd have to carry 100s. (...)
So many?

We sailed Gothenburg to Canary Islands, visiting Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Spain and Portugal with perhaps a dozen or so. We used an Imray almanac too - this one holds hundreds of port chartlets. Less cost, but even more importantly - less weight carried.

Also, we swapped charts with other sailors sailing in the opposite direction - twice: in Norway and then again in S Ireland.

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Old 08-04-2012, 06:30   #26
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Re: Buy paper charts?

It is impractical to carry a full set of fully updated paper charts for any given region on a typical cruising sailboat. When I say that I always carry paper charts, I should be clear that I mean I carry enough to get me to where I'm going, with some additional coverage for places I might have to divert to. If you are aware of their limitations, old used charts can be a good buy. In some places, it's possible to trade charts with cruisers headed in the opposite direction, although that's getting more difficult as fewer people carry paper charts.
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:36   #27
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Re: Buy paper charts?

Can anyone explain to me pls why every time I post a quote there is that ship in the picture? Am I the only one who has this issue? Am I bugged? Am I bugging others? Is this some sort of Easter(n) prank?

Thanks. Sorry for disturbing the flow.

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Old 08-04-2012, 06:37   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel

So many?

We sailed Gothenburg to Canary Islands, visiting Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Spain and Portugal with perhaps a dozen or so. We used an Imray almanac too - this one holds hundreds of port chartlets. Less cost, but even more importantly - less weight carried.

Also, we swapped charts with other sailors sailing in the opposite direction - twice: in Norway and then again in S Ireland.

b.
Look at the ful
List of admiralty charts just to cover Ireland , a relatively tiny place. Yes I use Imrays almanac, but it's not anywhere as good as a plotter , it's really just for navigating the port itself. It's also better in northern Europe.

Again try duplicating your plotters inventory of charts on the trip I mentioned. I added up my Garmin ones it would cost over 3000 euros to duplicate the chart set in paper. ( if you could actually get them all)

Yes I now use Imray and I can cover the journey I mentioned with about a dozen, so only 500 euros worth. But Imray charts are no backup for a plotter containing detailed local charts. They are aimed at yachtiees going from popular port A to popular port B .
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:38   #29
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Re: Buy paper charts?

We went electronic all the way, Navionics Chartplotter and OpenCPN on the Nav-laptop. But:

We have a decent printer on board, and before every passage we print out letter size charts for the next leg. These charts then include waypoints, routes, hazards, landfalls, notes. We also print harbour charts for all the possible landfalls. When charts aren't good in detail, often a GoogleEarth printout is added. These charts go in several Zip-lock bags. We keep a paper log with positions every so often (change of watch).

Sextant, mechanical watch, tables, handheld GPS are on board and can be used if needed.
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:39   #30
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We went electronic all the way, Navionics Chartplotter and OpenCPN. But:

We have a decent printer on board, and before every passage we print out letter size charts for the next leg. These charts then include waypoints, routes, hazards, landfalls, notes. We also print harbour charts for the all the possible landfalls. When charts aren't good in detail, often a GoogleEarth printout is added. These charts go in several Zip-lock bags. We keep a paper log with positions every so often (change of watch).

Sextant, mechanical watch, tables, handheld GPS are on board and can be used if needed.
That's not a bad idea, and i suspect the way forward for many but I find it's increasing difficult to print out some electronic charts. I've resorted to screen prints but you have to careful about zoom levels and the resulting informatio, more then once I realised there was info missing.


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