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Old 15-06-2013, 17:55   #31
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

We have and use:

- paper charts, pilots, guides, etc.,
- compass(es), sextant(s), etc.,
- GPS: 2 handhelds, 1 puck, 1 tablet, 1 phone.,
- software: MaxSea, +some dozen other plotter / AIS / wx / tides / etc.,
- e-charts: C-map, BSB, MapMedia,

Unfortunately, we do not have a proper plotter nor a radar (think cost).

My favoirite kit is MaxSea (on an XP netbook) with any applicable charts and the handheld - interfaced for planning (WPTs from MaxSea to the handheld) then disconnected with the handheld kept in the cockpit or in a pocket of the foulies.

A paper chart is always on the table and we mark our progress there, unless we do not have a chart of the area we are sailing (not likely in the s.c. civilized world).

My biggest disappointment is Android plotter software (Jeppesen, NV Charts, etc.).

b.
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Old 15-06-2013, 18:07   #32
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

Like Barnakiel plus we have Furuno Navnet radar/plotter at the nav station and at the helm.
No one device or chart is going to give you everything.
Navigation is a result of an assembly of inputs from all available sources in order to make a decision as to where you are or what route to take (and that includes looking out the window !)
Last season in Fiji there were a lot of newcomers that ran up on rocks they claimed weren't on the charts. They were on the chart, just that the electronic chart put the boat in the wrong place. Some of the charts are still based on non-WGS-84 (GPS) datum and to agree with GPS positions have to be moved. However, the electronic chart manufacturers have just digitised these charts as if they agreed with WGS-84 when they don't...there's a chart in Tonga for example that dates back to 1876 or something like that and it is miles out...but the C-Map chart is the same and we found often that we were anchored on hills !!

All the plotters work ok to an extent.

I would suggest you get the GPS plotter you can afford with the charts you need both electronic and paper, tide tables, a hand-bearing compass and paper plotting tools and practice using them, always comparing what you can see with what the plotter shows you and what your paper plot says...you will probably be somewhere in the middle of that- that's navigation.
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Old 15-06-2013, 19:55   #33
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

If moneys a big factor,(and it is for us LOL) Get a couple of battery powerd GPS's, hand helds, just the kind that give ya positions not maps, and GOOD paper charts. This will get ya anywhere ya need to go! Along with a good set of eyes, and commen sense. Thats all we ever used except for a sextant, and a Nautical Almanac! Connie has her lap top as I said in a post a way back, but we really don't need it altho she feels better having it ! We sailed a bunch of miles with just paper and GPS's Just a suggestion from a cheap sailor
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Old 16-06-2013, 02:03   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
We have and use:

- paper charts, pilots, guides, etc.,
- compass(es), sextant(s), etc.,
- GPS: 2 handhelds, 1 puck, 1 tablet, 1 phone.,
- software: MaxSea, +some dozen other plotter / AIS / wx / tides / etc.,
- e-charts: C-map, BSB, MapMedia,
.
This is the black and white internet, you're only allowed one

Doing something several different ways at the same time!! Sounds far to much like the real world
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Old 16-06-2013, 06:46   #35
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

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OMG! Furuno costs $3,000+.... sounds great but I really didnt plan on that kind of money for my nav software, dont get me wrong it looks like awesome stuff
There must be a cheaper way...

Yep, there are less expensive plotters. Screen size, capabilities, etc. will affect price. You can check various plotter makers and compare models/prices.

But in the end, both daylight visible color and waterproofing -- at the helm -- aren't cheap.

Nor is safety.

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Old 16-06-2013, 08:16   #36
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

We have furuno navnet and love it. Don't forget the chart chips are around $200 each. We're up to 14 or so! The're also a bit power hungry compared to some newer RM or garmin units. Something to think about. We also have a 12v. built in computer running nav software. Also 4 GPS units. YOU NEED BACKUP!!!
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Old 16-06-2013, 22:01   #37
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

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This of course depends upon where you are. In the US you can download updated charts weekly for free. They are supposed to have all to the LNMs included up oto the previous week so all you have to do is check this weeks LNM's.
I have NOAA raster charts downloaded from NOAA running under iNavX.

They are not more current than the current edition of a given chart, they certainly do not have any LMNs since the edition date.

The edition date is very different from the download date. Downloading the current edition today and then downloading the current edition in ten days would not change anything unless a new edition came out in between-- it would mean that you simply downloaded the same chart twice.

I have raster charts that the current edition is quite old.
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Old 18-06-2013, 17:27   #38
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

Back before I joined the Navy I used to rely a lot on my electronic plotters.. I loved them and swore by them. After years on a Navy ship I have had multiple occasions where our electronic equipment was off and we relied heavily on our paper charts until we were able to diagnose the problem.

Trust but verify.

Have faith in your electronics but always confirm with a paper chart that your positions are correct. Set a time interval, whether it be 5-30 minutes or an hour, to read off your POS and plot it on your paper charts. PIM out for 30 minutes and an hour. Compare your paper plots and waypoints to those on your plotter. The extra 2 minutes will add some solid comfort and allow you to enjoy your time on the water a little more.

Its really NOT that time consuming to keep paper charts updated. Get yourself a Chart One and a chart correction stencil. The more you check the LNTM the less corrections you'll have to do at one time.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:42   #39
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Re: best navigational software or paper charts only?

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i think my husband willbe more excited about the angry birds than the kids
I don't blame him
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:58   #40
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
I have NOAA raster charts downloaded from NOAA running under iNavX.

They are not more current than the current edition of a given chart, they certainly do not have any LMNs since the edition date.

The edition date is very different from the download date. Downloading the current edition today and then downloading the current edition in ten days would not change anything unless a new edition came out in between-- it would mean that you simply downloaded the same chart twice.

I have raster charts that the current edition is quite old.
Sorry, you are simply wrong. I refer you to the following web page:
Chart Updates (LNM and NM Corr'ns)

For the sake of brevity it notes that all updates to charts whether they be Raster, ENCs, or PODs are updated from the same data base and changes of navigational significance are updated on the charts on a weekly basis. The updates for any particular chart are looked up here and presented in text format. Pick any chart you want and look it up. Then go to the NOAA web site and download the chart. Look at the latest updates on the text list and check them on the downloaded chart and you will see that they are indeed reflected on the current downloaded chart. I don't know where you are getting your charts, but if they don't have LNM and NM updates you are not getting them from the official NOAA web site. What the charts do not show are temporary issues such as a marker destroyed or off station, so you should still consult the current LNMs or NMs.

On the chart list you will also note the latest "edition" date. That has nothing to do with when the last update was applied. For example, I'm currently on chart 11553(actually I'm on the water covered by chart 11553, so nit pickers please don't give me a hard time.) the last edition of which was published in 2006. If you look at the raster chart it says 2006, yet the chart I downloaded from NOAA today shows three changes posted on June 10, 2013 accurately.
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Old 04-07-2013, 20:58   #41
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

As you wish.

This is the link you were kind enough to provide:

------------

NOAA updates their nautical charts with corrections published in:

U.S. Coast Guard Local Notices to Mariners (LNMs),
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency Notices to Mariners (NMs), and
Canadian Coast Guard Notices to Mariners (CNMs).

Note: If a chart update is first published as an LNM and then later as an NM, the chart correction is listed just once and referenced to the earlier LNM publication. A similar relationship exists between CNMs and NMs.

NOAA's Chart Update Service

From this site, you can access the same chart updates that NOAA uses to update their Print-on-Demand paper charts, Raster Navigational Charts (NOAA RNC®), and Electronic Navigational Charts (NOAA ENC®). This site also provides advance notification of chart updates affecting hazards to navigation and other information considered essential for safe navigation, including:
Channel conditions,
Bridge and cable clearances, and
Regulatory changes that NOAA has identified and forwarded for publication in both the LNM and the NM.

Temporary changes to aids to navigation, special published announcements, and other important information affecting navigational safety are not available on this site.

NOAA Chart Update Disclaimer - Please read carefully

While information provided by this Web site is intended to assist in the updating of nautical charts, it must not be used as a substitute for the United States Coast Guard, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, or Canadian Coast Guard Notice to Mariner publications.

The information available on this site is derived from the National Ocean Service’s Critical Chart Corrections database (CRIT). CRIT is an in-house chart production tool, and may contain some naming conventions, textual abbreviations, or acronyms that are unfamiliar to the general public. Channel tabulations, depth legends, depth notes, and chartlets may not be included in chart update listings prior to January 2000, due to ongoing development of CRIT throughout the 1990s.

------------

I read it through, then I read it through again. Then I searched it for the string "week".

I am now confident that it does not say anything about weekly updates, because it does not include the string "week".

It also says that the information on this site is derived from a database that is used as an in-house production tool. That is, this database is used to update charts.

There is a large number of huge steps between information and a finished chart. This database is not a finished chart, this database is used by cartographers to produce finished charts. This is a list of corrections, not the corrections themselves. That is an important distinction in this discussion.

And now, specifics.

In LNM 9/13, District 13, on chart 18446, a yellow research bouy was deployed off of Spring Beach at 47-43-44 N, 122-23-40 W. That bouy has (had) the characteristics FL Y 4S 1m.

That bouy is still not on the charts, and never has been. I downloaded a new chart five minutes ago to be certain.

I added 8 lights to Anacortes Marina about eight weeks ago by hand, and had been watching them as my litmus test, but as luck would have it, they showed up when I went to look today.

When talking to me, one should never discount the possibility that I am wrong. So this could simply be my lack of education about charts and LNMs.

The last set of specifics I mentioned above, the lights in Anacortes Marina, were listed under Section IV, Chart Corrections of the LNM. The bouy off of Spring Beach was listed in Section VII, General. The Spring Beach bouy was listed with monotonous regularity, for about a year. (More or less, I didn't write it down, and I'd have to go back and look.) Then, about three weeks ago, the listings stopped. No explanation, just no listing.

What it looks like to me is this: Section IV, Chart Corrections, go on to become a permanent change to the charts, and, in due time, (certainly not "weekly"), show up on Print On Demand charts. But changes listed in Section VII, General, appear to simply go away. Silently, with no fanfare.

My question is this: is the bouy (and light) off of Spring Beach still there? Should it be a permanent part of my charts now? Or has it served it's purpose, and been removed?
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:47   #42
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

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Originally Posted by Greg4cocokai View Post
We have furuno navnet and love it. Don't forget the chart chips are around $200 each. We're up to 14 or so! The're also a bit power hungry compared to some newer RM or garmin units. Something to think about. We also have a 12v. built in computer running nav software. Also 4 GPS units. YOU NEED BACKUP!!!

The best backup is being able to navigate using a sextant and a watch. You guys need to remember that your just one lightning strike away from being totally blind if you rely solely on gps.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:20   #43
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

Jammer,
Sorry I did not provide enough information.
Please see the following links;

Print-on-Demand Charts (POD)

Note that it describes weekly updates in several places.

Raster Navigational Charts: NOAA RNCs

Notice the first paragraph states weekly updates.

Also the second paragraph under the heading "NOAA Raster Navigational Charts" it Says "NOAA updates the RNCs weekly."

Electronic Navigational Charts: NOAA ENCs®

You will notice that for ENCs it says it provides incemental updates and down near the bottom of the page it says the goal is to provide weekly updates, it does not promise weekly updates.

This makes some sense as the RNCs and the PODs are basically the same chart and you get a new full chart every time you downloat or print them. The ENCs on the otherhand are contracted out and the updates are appled to the base chart which must already be on your system. This obviously takes extra processing and might not be as timely as the POD/RNC updates. That is why I download both the ENCs and RNCs.

You have a really good point about the research bouy. It's not a navigational bouy so perhaps they didn't include it. It would be interesting to know if it's still there as it would be a hazard to navigation and has disappeared from the LNMs. I have found the LNMs to be lacking myself with respect to a number of things. I was out of the country for six months and upon returning to Fl I dutifully checked the LNMs. I was planning to exit the Indian River system through the Port Canaveral Locks. When I pulled up to the lock I found that they were closed for maintenance and only opened 1 hour in the morning (0600) and 1 hour in the evening (1800), of course I was there at 0800. Apparently the notice about this in the LNMs had fallen off the LNM list before the situation no longer existed. This may have also happened with the research bouy. I can't cite a specific example, but It seems to me that I have on occasion noted a situation that was is the LNMs for some time, that still existed, but was neither reflected in the latest version of the chart or still in the LNM/NMs. This presents the biggest problem to full time cruisers. It's simply not practical to manually maintain every chart on the east coast of the US manually from LNMs/NMs. I check these for the area that I'm about to pass through before I do, but It's not practical to go back five years and mark up every chart. If I did that I would never have time to leave the dock. I just know I will run into unexpected situations. Though charts and NMs/LNMs prvide useful information, none of these sources is 100% accurate, nor a substitute for a lookout attached to a brain.

The software I use allows me to put marks on my charts and make notes about them so I can maintain them manually if I wish. These notes appear to be linked to the chart, but stored separately from them so that when the underlying chart gets updated my marks and notes become attached to the new version. If I do this however, I have the same problem you do about when to remove them if they are no longer on the LNMs/NMs and have not shown up on the chart.
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Old 05-07-2013, 08:38   #44
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Re: Best Navigational Software or Paper Charts Only?

This electronic vs paper discussion has been going on as long as I have been here (5 years). Its all opinions (abiet some of them good ones) . Anyone reading about the Carrington Effect? If it hits earth like it did in 1859 they are saying all electronics will go- which interestingly enough, includes lights on buoys and running lights on ships!
Then we will have something to talk about, although it would have to be face to face.... I am looking into backup kerosene lanterns.
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