Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-10-2015, 09:44   #1
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Back to Celestial

Time to get off entitled arses and use a brain.

US navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack - Telegraph
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 10:07   #2
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,595
Re: Back to Celestial

Good to see they've finally realized our risk.

If they were smart they would try and salvage what they could of the LORAN system and get it going again. GPS is about $1B/yr to maintain. LORAN was $35M/yr, cheap as a backup and a lot more secure in certain ways.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 10:20   #3
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Back to Celestial

Its very odd that they stopped in the first place. There are so many fundaments that a navigator would never appreciate without a solid understanding of celestial navigation. I'd be curious to know if any other navies of the world stopped teaching celestial navigation to deck officers.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 10:26   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Back to Celestial

that was 35M/yr in the 60s though. so *20 by todays standards if not more.

i applaude the notion of teaching celestial navigation again but i doubt the application.
when I was in the Navy, i learned how to use a Sextant, we had one on board and we took it out of it's box...

drumroll...

once in 4 years.
because the jury rigged brand new (hey it was 97 and we just got one..) GPS Antenna had failed and we were in the middle of the Indian Ocean and got bored.

in order for celestial navigation to work, you have to practice it regularly else the result is a definite maybe.

@FamilyVan afaik the German and British Navy never stopped teaching it, practice is another story from my experience.
__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 10:42   #5
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 4,595
Re: Back to Celestial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonsays View Post
that was 35M/yr in the 60s though. so *20 by todays standards if not more.

No that was $35M/yr was what I recalled from when they shut it down.

The 5yr savings from the 2010 OMB report said $190M or $38M/yr. all the capital costs have been amortized, at that point it was just staffing and maintenance.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
SailboatData
Adelie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 10:54   #6
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Back to Celestial

Simonsays, the study of celestial navigation goes beyond fixing your position though. That's where you learn the fundaments of applied spherical trigonometry, how to plot and understand great circle sailing. Even the circular LOPs created by TD satellite navigation are learned in celestial navigation- so many things are learned.

I agree about the need for practice, if you dumped me in a life boat with a sextant, nautical almonac and Nories nautical tables I doubt I could fix my position, but the fundamental lessons served me well even in the world of electronic navigation right up until the day I moved ashore.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 10:55   #7
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Back to Celestial

Sorry, which navy now directs missiles with celestial positioning ? Maybe dead reckoning too...?

Deck officers have more things to learn than semaphore morse code and smoke signals no matter how romantic the notion
__________________
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 11:07   #8
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Oregon to Alaska
Boat: Wheeler Shipyard 83' ex USCG
Posts: 1,699
Re: Back to Celestial

Loran A & C were not world wide. Mostly in the northern hemisphere where US warships operate and land was available for the towers and equipment. It was not available in the deep ocean. It's accuracy using sky waves (far from the tower) was about equal to stars. About the time gps got cheap enough for civilians to use, the Navy was working on replacements (Omega, etc.) for Loran, but shelved them for gps. Loran A came about in WWII to enable bombers to bomb thru overcast. The towers and equipment were scrapped long ago. A practiced sextant user can get a fix within a mile when on a stable ship.
For a long time I have been advising people to have more than one way to navigate. Former navy trained navigator.
__________________
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 11:21   #9
Registered User
 
capt-couillon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Onboard (Boot Key Harbor)
Boat: Cornado 25
Posts: 494
Re: Back to Celestial

Still got a sextant on board and try to take a noon shoot every day offshore to stay in practice. If the nice electronics give it up, I still got a pretty good idea where I might make landfall. Course that assumes I have some paper charts and a pencil onboard.
__________________
"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
capt-couillon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 11:41   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Back to Celestial

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
Simonsays, the study of celestial navigation goes beyond fixing your position though. That's where you learn the fundaments of applied spherical trigonometry, how to plot and understand great circle sailing. Even the circular LOPs created by TD satellite navigation are learned in celestial navigation- so many things are learned.
i doubt the theory fundamentals got ever dropped by any naval school but that is like taking Math 101 at colleague.
practical application on the other hand had become a footnote by the time i served (late 90's)
and who is to blame when it is easier to measure the distance to a Lighthouse by laser instead of a sextant and fixing the postion is just done for documentation because the fleet dictates course and speed outside of terrestrial navigable waters.
__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 11:55   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Back to Celestial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
Loran A & C were not world wide. Mostly in the northern hemisphere where US warships operate and land was available for the towers and equipment. It was not available in the deep ocean. It's accuracy using sky waves (far from the tower) was about equal to stars. About the time gps got cheap enough for civilians to use, the Navy was working on replacements (Omega, etc.) for Loran, but shelved them for gps. Loran A came about in WWII to enable bombers to bomb thru overcast. The towers and equipment were scrapped long ago. A practiced sextant user can get a fix within a mile when on a stable ship.
For a long time I have been advising people to have more than one way to navigate. Former navy trained navigator.
the british DECCA covered most of the areas not covered by LORAN, in parts overlapping but with the same issues on high seas

DECCA Coverage Chart:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._locations.svg

it was scrapped around 2000 for GPS.

another former navy trained navigator.
__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 14:07   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 184
Re: Back to Celestial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simonsays View Post
i doubt the theory fundamentals got ever dropped by any naval school but that is like taking Math 101 at colleague.
practical application on the other hand had become a footnote by the time i served (late 90's)
and who is to blame when it is easier to measure the distance to a Lighthouse by laser instead of a sextant and fixing the postion is just done for documentation because the fleet dictates course and speed outside of terrestrial navigable waters.
Actually the USA had dropped all reference and training including theory. In fact the only " return to celestial " that has been added back is a 3 or 3.5 hour class on theory. That is a long way from " going back "
__________________
farm sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 14:25   #13
Registered User
 
jreiter190's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Melbourne, Fl., Patrick Airforce Marina
Boat: 1965 Pearson Alberg 35 #190
Posts: 322
Re: Back to Celestial

On my ship, every day at sea, sextant was used. Every day. I took LORAN A readings every hour of every watch and learned to tell sky waves from ground waves. Instead of using the interpolation tables, I used a chart with the LORAN stations printed on them and a pair of dividers. When you get a five LOP pinwheel fix, it's mathematically impossible to be incorrect. This was in Japan, Phillipines, China and Vietnam. No offense intended
__________________
jreiter190 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 15:01   #14
Registered User
 
Hydra's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lorient, Brittany, France
Boat: Gib'Sea 302, 30' - Hydra
Posts: 1,229
Re: Back to Celestial

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Sorry, which navy now directs missiles with celestial positioning ? Maybe dead reckoning too...?
In fact, ballistic missiles (ICBM) are directed with celestial positioning and inertial navigation, which is a high-level sort of estimated navigation (measuring accelerations and integrating twice with respect to time, to obtain the course made good).

Alain
__________________
Hydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2015, 16:43   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Germany
Boat: 2ft wide dreaming chair
Posts: 311
Re: Back to Celestial

Quote:
Originally Posted by jreiter190 View Post
On my ship, every day at sea, sextant was used. Every day. I took LORAN A readings every hour of every watch and learned to tell sky waves from ground waves. Instead of using the interpolation tables, I used a chart with the LORAN stations printed on them and a pair of dividers. When you get a five LOP pinwheel fix, it's mathematically impossible to be incorrect. This was in Japan, Phillipines, China and Vietnam. No offense intended
that is awesome.
i wish i did have the time to do that or the Nautical Officer ordering to make the time.
instead i even got people ordered off for general duty when there were charts to correct leaving me to do that on my own and my staff to learn how how to clean a hallway you already could eat from before they started instead of navigation.
__________________

__________________
Simonsays is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sextant

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I have heard of people going back and forth from USA to MX and back and no a Passport shorebird2 The Sailor's Confessional 33 02-06-2014 05:29
Celestial Navigation Help Needed Loose Ends Navigation 67 10-11-2011 13:19
Celestial Navigation SkiprJohn Navigation 45 29-12-2008 23:15
Davis Mark III Sextant Celestial Navigation Training Aid longonsilver Classifieds Archive 0 27-01-2008 15:17



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.