Are Speed Logs and Wind Speed Instruments Obsolete?

[s/v Jedi]

Wow, 44 actually agrees with me in this thread :-) and meanwhile, we can keep discovering new levels of ignorance on windvanes and autopilots from some. We now even got to the level where they discard something and then add argumentation that supports the opposite. "Must autopilot to compass like racers" while every racing sailor needs to learn to steer to windangle. It's almost funny until you realize you may actually meet them out there. I better upgrade my radar to that new doppler Furuno to steer clear :-)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Wow, 44 actually agrees with me in this thread :-)

Yes, it made me wonder if I was wrong?!?!

;-)

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

When steering to AWA, the pilot actually steers a compass heading, which it derives from the wind angle. So there's an inbuilt degree of damping.

Aha!

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

WTF are you talking about? Long fingers?

Try reading this slowly. All I have to do is turn the wheel to disengage the autopilot.

Maybe you need long fingers to turn your steering?
I don't.

44,
It's obvious you have no sense of humor if you didn't get the above analogy/joke. Sorry, but I've never liked explaining a good joke to those who just don't get it. However, when you are using your AP, do you sit at the helm with your fingers hovering slightly above the wheel in a Sixties-esque disco dance stance or are they judiciously and harmoniously folded in your lap? Or, if you are sitting comfortably in the cockpit away from the wheel, do you wear running shoes for better traction and a quicker motion to get to the wheel where a flick of the finger disengages the AP when sailing in"quite confined waters, such as lakes and even rivers?" If you want to defend what I, and others, believe is unsafe navigation where a "hands on" approach is obviously the safest, wisest and most prudent approach , it's your business. But, what about that one time when your fingers(perhaps they ARE short) touch the wheel and there is an electronic glitsch and it doesn't respond. Who then is the prudent mariner? Good luck and safe sailing. P.S. Religious faith in electrical systems is foolhardy at best. Just ask the aerospace engineers at NASA or the tanker that just recently rammed a US Navy ship. Long fingers, short fingers . . . it doesn't really matter when you're firmly gripping the helm in "quite confined waters."

[Jim Cate]

Sorry, but I've never liked explaining a good joke to those who just don't get it.

You NEVER have to explain a GOOD joke to anyone, mate.

And I didn't find it intuitive that you were joking, not after your righteous statements condemning 44's seamanship. IMO, an attentive skipper who has an a/p steering, but who is maintaining careful watch, and who can disengage the a/p or hit the dodge button quickly is doing just fine with regards seamanship. The chap clutching the wheel but busy talking or ogling some bikini clad babe is the one to worry about!

Jim

[44'cruisingcat]

How about when you're tacking your way up a river?

The "hands on" helmsman will be looking up at the sail, watching the tell tales, while I can let the A/P do that while I look out for all the unexpected shoals and swimmers.

Yeah, hand steering in rivers is very poor seamanship. IMO.

Come to that, using "I can live without it" as an excuse to not maintain your boat's systems is pretty poor also.....

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Set to "Wind Nav", where the boat steers to a wind angle which will keep it on course to a waypoint.

Sea state never shows up on video, but it was pretty much normal for 15 - 20 wind.

I've used wind nav in bigger conditions, surfing swells etc, still works well.

When steering to AWA, the pilot actually steers a compass heading, which it derives from the wind angle. So there's an inbuilt degree of damping.

So - if the wind speed increases or decreases or the direction from which the wind is coming alters then the yacht will alter course..... so it is not steering to a (EDIT) 'Constant' compass heading.....

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

You NEVER have to explain a GOOD joke to anyone, mate.

And I didn't find it intuitive that you were joking, not after your righteous statements condemning 44's seamanship. IMO, an attentive skipper who has an a/p steering, but who is maintaining careful watch, and who can disengage the a/p or hit the dodge button quickly is doing just fine with regards seamanship. The chap clutching the wheel but busy talking or ogling some bikini clad babe is the one to worry about!

Jim

"You NEVER have to explain a GOOD joke to anyone, mate." JimCate

Rognvald's reply: Just like you don't have to explain a good novel, poem, symphony or painting to anyone . . . right, Jim?

Rognvald's response to Paragraph 2-sentences 1 and 2:
I'm glad I don't have to explain it to you, Jim, that I wasn't joking about my opinion as to 44's poor seamanship in confined waters. I thought my words were quite clear and without ambiguity.

Response to Jim's last sentence:
This I find offensive, Jim, since there is no greater pleasure for a healthy, normal, heterosexual male than "ogling some Bikini-clad babe"--especially in confined waters because sailing offshore would require the use of binoculars, etc., etc., etc.

Good luck and safe sailing, Jim and . . . never let a day go by without a good laugh . . . even if it's at your expense. Captain Rognvald pondering a new Zen koan: What is the sound of one hand clapping while the other engages an autopilot? Somehow I don't think the Buddha cares.

[David M]

We use an RM Young anemometer on the research vessel for data logging of the wind. It's definitely not an obsolete item.

The paddlewheel logs are notoriously inaccurate. We use a doppler speed log for measuring current speed, total distance and average speed through the water.

GPS, of course, is good for those same measurements over the ground.

[David M]

The sails don't lie about how well they are trimmed.

[El Pinguino]

I'm not commenting on anyone's seamanship.... however...

If the helmsman can't watch the tell tales, steer clear of dangers, ogle hot chicks on the shore ( I wish) , keep a radio watch, watch the depth, watch for crossing traffic , discuss the dinner menu with the cook, and drink a beer all while having a quiet scratch and steering with his foot they are sadly lacking in the multi-tasking skills required for the job......

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rognvald

44,
It's obvious you have no sense of humor if you didn't get the above analogy/joke. Sorry, but I've never liked explaining a good joke to those who just don't get it. However, when you are using your AP, do you sit at the helm with your fingers hovering slightly above the wheel in a Sixties-esque disco dance stance or are they judiciously and harmoniously folded in your lap? Or, if you are sitting comfortably in the cockpit away from the wheel, do you wear running shoes for better traction and a quicker motion to get to the wheel where a flick of the finger disengages the AP when sailing in"quite confined waters, such as lakes and even rivers?" "

I can sit with my hands resting on the wheel, ready to intervene instantly.

As for the rest of the drivel....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

So - if the wind speed increases or decreases or the direction from which the wind is coming alters then the yacht will alter course..... so it is not steering to a (EDIT) 'Constant' compass heading.....

Well yes, that's the point.

Windvanes do this too,you know...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Well yes, that's the point.

Windvanes do this too,you know...

Yes, thank you, I do know....

Which is why I wouldn't use either close inshore where I sail.

[David M]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

How do you tell current without a log?

Two ways, stop the boat completely with respect to the water and look at the GPS speed and direction. It's not super accurate because of the GPS systems dilution of precision, but it gives you a pretty close idea within a few tenths of a knot. And of course it will not work if it is blowing like hell out because you will never know when you are stopped with respect to the water.

The second method is to spend about $20,000 to get an Acoustic Doppler Current Profiler (ADCP) with bottom tracking. It uses four acoustic beams to track how fast the current is flowing across the bottom...and the speed and direction at different depths (cells) between you and the bottom. It's accuracy is to a tenth of a knot for speed and 1 degree for direction.

Yes, the first way is more practical but not as accurate.