Are Speed Logs and Wind Speed Instruments Obsolete?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So you're opposed to using a windvane self steering system?

Depends.... offshore its the only way to go..... inshore maybe not.... esp in my situation where wind speed and therefore apparent wind direction can vary quite remarkably in a very short period of time and we are rarely more than a few miles off the lumpy bits....

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So you're opposed to using a windvane self steering system?

No. I use a Autohelm and find it is money well-spent for longer cruises. I would prefer to have a Monitor windvane(more dependable, simple, non-electric and able to hold a course in lumpy conditions) if I were planning a series of offshore passages(two plus weeks) and were sailing a cruise that involved several thousand miles in a short time period. Again, I am not anti-technology, but there are some items aboard a sailing vessel that have outlived their usefulness for me: speed log and windspeed indicator are two of them. It's no big deal. I don't miss them. My sailing skills and safety are not compromised and they are two fewer things aboard I have to fix and/or replace. Good luck and safe sailing. P.S. When I bought my present boat, it was equipped with an Autohelm that failed shortly after my first shakedown cruise(about 700 miles). We were in the prime sailing season in the Caribbean(April through June) and we happily sailed a few thousand miles without it until we returned to Miami for repairs. Did we miss it? Yes. Did we need it? No.

[boatman61]

Jeez..!!! All this tweaking and twerking by you guys has exhausted me... I'm of below for a kip..

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Jeez..!!! All this tweaking and twerking by you guys has exhausted me... I'm of below for a kip..

Just stick her on auto... she'll be right

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rognvald

No. I use a Autohelm and find it is money well-spent for longer cruises. I would prefer to have a Monitor windvane(more dependable, simple, non-electric and able to hold a course in lumpy conditions) if I were planning a series of offshore passages(two plus weeks) and were sailing a cruise that involved several thousand miles.....

But according to seaslug you'd get tired, the wind would shift and you'd end up on the rocks.

And what's more, you agreed "exactly".

Funny thing is, I'll let my autopilot steer to a wind angle in quite confined waters, such as lakes and even rivers.

I just keep an eye on what it's doing. This isn't rocket science.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But according to seaslug you'd get tired, the wind would shift and you'd end up on the rocks.



And what's more, you agreed "exactly".



Funny thing is, I'll let my autopilot steer to a wind angle in quite confined waters, such as lakes and even rivers.



I just keep an eye on what it's doing. This isn't rocket science.

CC,

Seaslug wasn't talking about me or himself but rather those sailors who put their faith exclusively in their electronic aids rather than exercising good seamanship. That's how I interpreted his remarks when I said "Exactly" and I believe that was his intent/meaning. How you sail your boat is your business. It doesn't mean that everyone must agree with you as any reasonable man would assume that not everyone agrees with me. As far as using an autopilot in confined waters . . . it goes against my sense of prudent navigation where a few seconds to disengage your AP could be critical in a situation that requires an immediate, unfettered response: unseen/uncharted obstruction below the surface, a newly formed shoal area from a recent storm that is still uncharted, a person in the water, etc. But, it's your boat, your life, your reputation. A good friend of mine has been a pilot for most of his life and they have a saying among pilots they teach in flight training school that I have never forgotten: There are old pilots, there are bold pilots . . . however, there are no old, bold pilots. I believe the same applies to sailors. Good luck and SAFE sailing.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rognvald

CC,

Seaslug wasn't talking about me or himself but rather those sailors who put their faith exclusively in their electronic aids rather than exercising good seamanship. That's how I interpreted his remarks when I said "Exactly" and I believe that was his intent/meaning. How you sail your boat is your business. It doesn't mean that everyone must agree with you as any reasonable man would assume that not everyone agrees with me. As far as using an autopilot in confined waters . . . it goes against my sense of prudent navigation where a few seconds to disengage your AP could be critical in a situation that requires an immediate, unfettered response: unseen/uncharted obstruction below the surface, a newly formed shoal area from a recent storm that is still uncharted, a person in the water, etc. But, it's your boat, your life, your reputation.

All I have to do is turn a steering wheel, and the AP will disengage. Still, nice try at attacking my seamanship.

BTW, Seaslug was also referring to Desmond Hampton, who obviously isn't the sailor Seaslug is. In his opinion anyway.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I wonder if the guys who race round the world, set RTW records, the Sydney to Hobart racers, the fastnet racers, the transat, transpac...... you name it, wonder if any of them has wind and speed instruments?

In the racing world (or if you are just a type A personality), of course any bit of extra data is useful.

Obviously if you want to set an autopilot to a wind angle, you need the information but again, while nice it's not critical.

For a relaxed cruiser who isn't trying to eek out that last 0.1kt, it's nice but not critical. If you are trying to make the last 5 miles into port before nightfall, just (shrieks of horror), turn on the engine and make it so.

I can git a pretty good feel for currents in coastal settings by comparing the heading from the GPS to landmarks, the compass heading and the expected drift. Not perfect but generally good enough. When motoring, it's really very good in high or low currents.

When offshore, sampling over longer time periods to get the best Speed and direction over ground will work the same way and you have much longer periods of time to play with...reality how many people sailing offshore tweak their sails every 5-10 minutes as winds change?

[rognvald]

"Funny thing is, I'll let my autopilot steer to a wind angle in quite confined waters, such as lakes and even rivers."

"All I have to do is turn a steering wheel, and the AP will disengage."
44CC

You must have long fingers to quickly disengage if you are sailing on Autopilot. And yes, sailing in confined waters with an autopilot is bad seamanship in my opinion. Good luck and safe sailing.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"Funny thing is, I'll let my autopilot steer to a wind angle in quite confined waters, such as lakes and even rivers."

"All I have to do is turn a steering wheel, and the AP will disengage."
44CC

You must have long fingers to quickly disengage if you are sailing on Autopilot. And yes, sailing in confined waters with an autopilot is bad seamanship in my opinion. Good luck and safe sailing.

WTF are you talking about? Long fingers?

Try reading this slowly. All I have to do is turn the wheel to disengage the autopilot.

Maybe you need long fingers to turn your steering?
I don't.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In the racing world (or if you are just a type A personality), of course any bit of extra data is useful.

Obviously if you want to set an autopilot to a wind angle, you need the information but again, while nice it's not critical.

For a relaxed cruiser who isn't trying to eek out that last 0.1kt, it's nice but not critical. If you are trying to make the last 5 miles into port before nightfall, just (shrieks of horror), turn on the engine and make it so.

I can git a pretty good feel for currents in coastal settings by comparing the heading from the GPS to landmarks, the compass heading and the expected drift. Not perfect but generally good enough. When motoring, it's really very good in high or low currents.

When offshore, sampling over longer time periods to get the best Speed and direction over ground will work the same way and you have much longer periods of time to play with...reality how many people sailing offshore tweak their sails every 5-10 minutes as winds change?

On a responsive boat the difference can be much more than 0.1 knot.

Maybe more than 1 knot.

And I really dislike motoring. Which is why I built this boat. In the right conditions we can sail much faster than we can motor anyway.

And the point of sailing to a wind angle is that you don't have to constantly tweak sails. You set a wind angle, trim the sails and away you go. The sails stay correctly trimmed.

Then you just monitor your progress, making minor adjustments as required.

It's a very easy way to sail efficiently.

What's amusing is the same Luddites who frown upon setting an autopilot to steer a wind angle are the same people who love windvane self steering. Yet the two perform essentially the same function.

[Don C L]

Hmmm... AWA sensors are mounted at the top of a mast... a cat does not pitch or roll as much as a mono... hence the top of mast is not being flung around too much... Going upwind on a calm sea, even a mono's mast head's not flying around too much so AWA may stay fairly constant, no? But in rougher conditions or off the wind with a combo of pitching forward, surfing, speeding up, being passed by the swell, slowing down and mast pitching back, in a mono, along with rolling the mast port and stbd, seems like a lot to ask of an AP being told to follow apparent wind angle, at least in a mono, no? Does it edit out the error due to the sensor being flung around? Now, full disclosure, I have not sailed a boat, mono or cat, that had it yet... so I'd really like to see it in action.

[44'cruisingcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4PoObnQrpc

Nothing too dramatic really.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Nothing too dramatic really.

Ha! Show off! I can do that everyday in my ol' 29' mono!

But doesn't this confirm my point? Your boat is scudding along solid, (beam reaching in pretty small seas though) and the mast is not pitching or rolling. I am assuming the AP was set to AWA in the video?

[44'cruisingcat]

Set to "Wind Nav", where the boat steers to a wind angle which will keep it on course to a waypoint.

Sea state never shows up on video, but it was pretty much normal for 15 - 20 wind.

I've used wind nav in bigger conditions, surfing swells etc, still works well.

When steering to AWA, the pilot actually steers a compass heading, which it derives from the wind angle. So there's an inbuilt degree of damping.