Are paper charts as a backup still necessary?

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

‘Doing just fine without your advice over the past 45 years... no need to “study up.” Maybe you just need to get with the times.

Having watched your aggressive counterpunches, with considerable amusement, over the years, I should have known better than to suggest that you do something like "study up". Actually, I did, , but thought I would play the game, anyway.


Seriously, this was meant not just for you but for others who may make the mistake of overlooking the issues I brought up. Reading manuals, and understanding how things work, are, of course, mandatory though often neglected. But the fact is that issues, like layering on vector charts, are easily overcome in the planning stages, but traps that can be just as easily fallen into when underway and following a course that is different than anticipated, such as when sailing and, in particular, when tacking. In many cases, the zoom level that is required is simply too tight without someone constantly staring at the plotter. The vector issues can be mitigated with screen size, but, again, we are talking about typical equipment.



I do get "with the times". I actually teach this stuff, which doesn't make me any more automatically correct than the "45 years", (during only some of which you have had a plotter) you have "done just fine without my advice"! 45 years actually doesn't seem that long to me, but I wish you another 45 successful years of sailing. And I have no interest in advising you. But that doesn't change the facts of what I have said, and the fact that many are totally unaware of the issues and thus, on occasion, get into trouble. I would like to spare them some of that.


In closing, my boat has (and always has had) a very full complement of electrical and electronic gear, the manuals for all of which I have read. But, I also have a full complement of charts, and I don't consider them to be just back-up, although I have seen, first hand, some of the unexpected results of lightning strikes. Perhaps you have missed those, in which case, bravo!

[Cpt Pat]

I carry both. For me, it's an issue of scale. Sometimes, using a chartplotter is like driving a car while looking through a telescope. When I need a "big picture" awareness, I refer to the chart.

Until there's a chartplotter with a screen as large and light as a paper chart (that can be rolled up and put away), I'll still need a chart at times to visualize the relationships of charted objects - especially when navigating unfamiliar waters.

[Cheechako]

Save the paper for sure. I hate electronic charts, especially in tense circumstances. Now if I had a 36" monitor that may be different. But on a small screen, you either get no detail, or you get no wide surrounding view. With paper I can look at it all the time, predict what's the next challenge and think about it etc.
For me it's Paper (new or old) #1, Electronic as backup or a planning tool at anchor..
When electronic become a pair of glasses I wear, that my thoughts can take the view I want, at any distance I want, then I will change my mind!

[Ip485]

Paperless.


I aviate as well, and many of us have gone paperless in the cockpit, as have most commercial operators, so I dont think the risk for sailing is relevant. Paperless cockpits are now legal on most registrations, possibly all.



In the same way have a backup and be ready to put the iPad or whatever out of harms way. I use Navionics, and the ability to download the same set of charts to the plotter and a PC is very useful, without having to purchase the same charts twice.


I do like paper charts, but they take up space and once you get accustom to using electronic charts all the time, seem inconvenient.

[Ip485]

PS its funny exactly the same debate raged for a while in aviation. Fair to say paperless has pretty much become accpeted, although inevitably there are those that still prefer paper. Training and understanding the limitations of each is important. I doubt there is a correct answer, but if you are comfortable with paperless, then there is no reason not to rely on paperless. BTW if you lost all your charts for some reason I would have thought most of us should at least manage to make safe haven without, if you have engaged in some sensible planning before hand.

[Cpt Pat]

I still carry sectional charts when flying. I haven't forgotten my experience of flying a rental into the SF Bay area over the Sierra mountains, at night, with a dark cockpit, only the magnetos keeping me in the air, and a flashlight held between my teeth to read the chart, and my wristwatch for DR. Without that chart, I wouldn't be writing this now.


Never trust your life to complex electronics, or idiot software developers. As to software reliability: we are still in the era of "patch and pray" where software is pushed out still half-baked. (If software was always perfect, I'd be unemployed.)

[conachair]

Originally Posted by mjscottinnc

I'm the most tech guy you will ever find. 2 IPads and an Android Tablet for navigation, 2 backup GPSs, AIS, WiFi Radar, 2 smart phones, Wifi thought out the boat, VHF, and SSB. USB charge stations in the cockpit and through out the cabin, 630 Watts of solar, 400 watt wind generator, 55 amps alternator on the diesel, 400 A/h of batteries in two banks.

I still carry a sextant and paper charts.

I place absolute trust in absolutely nothing.

With that said, I've never had an electronics or navigation failure onboard. But you can bet if I decided to leave the paper charts behind, I'd be hit by lightning or some other freakish electrical event which rendered tech useless. Murphy's looking for an opportunity everyday.

Big

Can't actually remember the last time any paper nav was done, all electronic these days..... but, all those navigational eggs in one basket just seems a little too far on the trusting side where a good splash of sea water or lightning strike could make things somewhat interesting. Doesn't need much paper either, cruising guides cover most of it, maybe a small scale large area as well is enough to keep you safe in most of the world. Most boats will have enough onboard anyway, not like you need every harbour chart there is.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Save the paper for sure. I hate electronic charts, especially in tense circumstances. Now if I had a 36" monitor that may be different. But on a small screen, you either get no detail, or you get no wide surrounding view.

This reminds me ... a recent "upgrade" to the software on my plotter added some zoom buttons on the chart screen (for those unable to work out that the big rotary knob also zooms the display?) ... but on my 7" screen these buttons occupy 20% of the screen space ahead of the boat when travelling south! I must remember to contact B&G to ask how to uninstall their "upgrade", some day I may want to head south - I guess there's always paper.

[Ip485]

I still carry sectional charts when flying. I haven't forgotten my experience of flying a rental into the SF Bay area over the Sierra mountains, at night, with a dark cockpit, only the magnetos keeping me in the air, and a flashlight held between my teeth to read the chart, and my wristwatch for DR. Without that chart, I wouldn't be writing this now.

That is a good point. It is also why I mentioned training and understanding are part of the equation with any "new" technology. In short, what is your backup? Fying without a backup, just as sailing, would be unwise.


Diesel engines in light aircraft will stop without electrical power - there are no mags. Yet they are fully certified. The engines have a backup electrical source sufficient to get you on the gorund before the engine(s) quit. I fly and boat with three radios. I fly and boat with three seperate sources of electronic charts. Redundancy is key and the kit probably doesnt add up to any more than draws full of charts.


Its enough. I have had a radio fail. I have had a GPS map on an aircraft fail (although never an IFR certified map), and we all practise an occasional recovery using nothing more than a radio, no charts (electronic or otherwise), and it works. Like anything these are skills that should be rehearsed. You are probably equally unwise setting off with any one source of navigation (be it electronic or paper).


Things have changed. After all these days a hand held VHF is a few hundred dollars or pounds and can go with you in any rental aircraft or yacht. It is a vital enough piece of kit, and in the case of your rental over the SF bay, might have made for a more relaxed recovery to the airfield.

[Ip485]

PS as to errors in electronic charts I would also agree with reservations. Firstly, there are often as many errors in paper charts. There are plenty of paper charts to which one can point without reefs being marked, and even whole islands. Sectionals come with their own list of amendments, and how many of us have time to make the amendments? Fact of the matter with any means of navigation having some idea of the wider picture is half the battle. Be it aviation or boating if you have a rough idea where you are the mark one eyeball, paper, pencil and some DR still work wonders. Without boasting, I reckon that I would be comfortable doing most coastal passages with having first had a look at the chart , combined with a bit of DR and an idea in my mind of what the destination would look like.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Ip485

PS as to errors in electronic charts I would also agree with reservations. Firstly, there are often as many errors in paper charts. There are plenty of paper charts to which one can point without reefs being marked, and even whole islands. Sectionals come with their own list of amendments, and how many of us have time to make the amendments? Fact of the matter with any means of navigation having some idea of the wider picture is half the battle. Be it aviation or boating if you have a rough idea where you are the mark one eyeball, paper, pencil and some DR still work wonders. Without boasting, I reckon that I would be comfortable doing most coastal passages with having first had a look at the chart , combined with a bit of DR and an idea in my mind of what the destination would look like.

I would agree, until that moment, frequent enough in boating and sometimes aviation, when the destination, for whatever reason, changes. Sometimes, it changes quite a lot!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Fugawi has just about the whole world for O.

https://www.fugawi.com/store?device_model_id=25

That's a bit of a stretch.


Fugawi's Oceania and Pacific Ocean contains just ONE chart product - New Zealand 2018.


And they apparently don't have ANY coverage of SE Asia.


That's a big chunk of "the whole world" missing.

[Ip485]

Contrail - I also agree about destinations changing, but that is the grounds for at least a handheld radio. Whether it be sailing (where you need to be closer) or aviation (where radio communications is far more integrated) the radio is often your friend. I would also agree that there may be occasions more especially with sailing, where the radio is not enough, in especially remote locations where there is no one on the other end, but then again in sailing you have the luxury of holding off until conditions improve if that is the cause for concern (not so the same luxury with aviating ). For many places marine services are pretty well joined up so when needs must assistance is at hand.

[Mr B]

Your sailing along at night, Its pitch black out there, No moon,
The only thing thats working on your boat is the compass,
Your heading west,
Lightning Strike, Fire on board, Wave has taken out the electrics, Etc Etc, Whatever,
How do paper charts help you in those circumstances,

[Ip485]

This thread made me think about some of the similarities with aviating.



One is to stop and think. In aviation sometimes pilots think time is not their friend. In fact almost always it is. Even in a machine that will eventually be reunited with the ground, time is a vital friend, working a problem slowly and methodically is almost always a better solution.


In yachts I suspect this is even more true. As the previous poster and one before indicated, in both pursuits, night and loss of all equipment is never going to make for a good day. However, in sailing time is even more your friend, because, in most cases as long as you have some idea where you are and where any dangers are, sailing in the opposite direction will buy you all the time in the world. When the sun rises, things will look and seem very different. How often have people got into difficulty trying to do things at night, and in a rush.



In short, I suspect if all else fails, sit it out, and wait for the sun to rise again or the sea to settle down!