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Old 03-02-2015, 14:44   #121
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
An EDICS system with VECTOR Charts is classed as having official charts because the are electronic versions of paper charts and are displayed on a secure system. If you have $10-20K to spend and the space that's fine. Chartplotters and laptops are not secure system and use VECTOR charts which are NOT official charts. They are great and I use they all the time but the advice is that they are vulnerable on a small boat and you should back them up/check them against the official charts (but you don't need all of them!).
I'm sorry, but you really don't understand what you are talking about here. Most EDICS systems do use vector charts, vector charts certainly are official charts (governmental hydrographic survey departments create and distribute them), and the charts available for commercial systems - raster or vector - are also available to recreational systems.

It makes no sense to "check electronic charts" against "the official charts".

In fact, for many cruising grounds, doing this would put you in danger since the "official" charts are so inaccurate compared to the electronic versions provided by individual efforts - consider Mexico, Panama, etc.

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Old 03-02-2015, 14:48   #122
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
In a jon boat? In a bow rider? Pontoon boat?

Please post a link. Anybody post a link. A link to a law requiring people in small boats to carry paper charts.
Ron,

You don't want to ask a stupid question of Carsten.
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:53   #123
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Ron,

You don't want to ask a stupid question of Carsten.
He made a statement (he's not the only one who made a similar statement). I'm asking for proof because I don't believe his statement is 100% accurate.
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Old 03-02-2015, 15:23   #124
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Fact: please provide examples of all these cruise ships running aground due to GPS issues - they seem to be keeping themselves out of the news and out of the lawsuits.



Fact: the US has only one of several GPS systems in use. The one small part of the entire USCG cyber security proceedings related to GPS is about spoofing and jamming attacks on individual ships - not on bringing down the constellation itself. Spoofing and jamming involve being very close to a victim and are of short-range, targeted use. Cyber attacks on the constellation itself are almost impossible.



Real facts please - not made-up conveniences that fit your narrative.



Mark
History:
Royal Majesty
June 1995
Cruise ship steamed no GPS SIGNAL for 34hr before running aground.
http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/m/profile/ade...%20Majesty.pdf

Fact: The US operates the only GPS system. The other satellite positioning systems have different names. Cheap shot there from the grammar police.
Also GPS is not one of several options, it's one of two, the other being the Russian GLONASS system. Not so cheap shot from the fact checking police.
The other 2 systems you might be thinking about are the European Galileo system that looks to be about 5yr from operation and the Chinese COMPASS system which will go online someday and works on the principal that you broadcast a radio signal, satellites in orbit figure out where you are and tell that info or tell you where the PLA would like you to believe you are.

Reality check: The Europeans are concerned enough about the security of satellite positioning that they are pouring $100Ms or perhaps $1B into upgrading LORAN to the next generation eLORAN.

OK so you've glossed over or slightly misrepresented the weak parts of your argument nothing I haven't done before myself, but that brings us to

Final fact: CF rules say so play nice. The tone your post generally is condescending at best and skirts the edge of not playing nice. The last paragraph however essentially says those that disagree with you are making things up to support their position. That is for sure not nice.


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Old 03-02-2015, 15:37   #125
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
He made a statement (he's not the only one who made a similar statement). I'm asking for proof because I don't believe his statement is 100% accurate.
Sorry, but the questioning of small craft seemed somewhat unneeded? I doubt they need chart on row boats.
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Old 03-02-2015, 15:41   #126
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post

There is no way anyone could possibly mistake that for an entrance using electronic charts.

Mark
Nor could they using paper charts..... refer back to what I said about fools.....

And I know I keep bringing this up ... http://www.islandvulnerability.org/docs/oliva.pdf and I always thought that a ship built as recently as 2009 would have been fitted with and using an ECDIS. As a result I had assumed this was an electronic chart assisted grounding.... seems not... they had no ECDIS and were using paper.

However if you look at the chart on page 12 you will see that if they had been aware of and had applied "Ping's One Inch Rule ( world famous in New Zealand )" this would never have happened... please refer once again to what I said about fools....
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Old 03-02-2015, 15:58   #127
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Paper charts are definitely much better for route planning, as you can see the whole area, identify hazards, anchorages, and get a real feel for distances.

But once you have a plan, the Chart Plotter makes it so easy to follow, especially when approaching a harbour.

Paper charts are expensive, so its important to have the right paper charts. On the other hand, they are dirt cheap when you need to know which way to go.
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:00   #128
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Someone I'm sure already posted this but I didn't read through all nine pages on the thread. For those that want to see the 'big picture' - this link is great:

Navionics Webapp

It has the whole world.

In another life I used paper but after 5 years the chart was completely destroyed even though I was meticulous about caring for it (tubes etc.). Problem for me was when I pulled it out in the cockpit it was exposed (open boat). That was 10 years ago. Now I'm all electronic with quadruple redundancy using main chartplotter (Navionics Gold), iPad (INavX), Cell phone and finally a backup chartplotter just in case the main one fails (I use it on the dinghy for a fishfinder but have the charts just in case). Also have AIS which has its own internal GPS...

I used to be a dinosaur but the world has evolved. If you're relying solely on paper in my opinion you are jeopardizing your safety in some parts of the world as others have said on here.

Safe sailing!

Small Cat Fun
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:05   #129
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Can anyone say what I-pad to get? We use a Garmin now but thought of Ipad for back up. Yes I like the paper charts also, they don't need 12v
So, GEEZ! there seemed like 50 kinds of ipads! I hate my wifes smart phone that does not work! Maybe I should hire a tek E to get it set it up then give a lesson or two, ha, ha
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:08   #130
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
They're both. I'm all for high tech stuff, but I like to have the large charts to better get a sense of the whole picture. However, if you're going to use them, it is mo' better to print just the area you're going to need (at least in the US from NOAA) because they get updated all the time. Cheaper that way, too.
Good points. I feel the same way about a GPS in the car. I'd rather make my own decisions from a paper map and then tell the dang thing what I want to do.

I am just re-reading Pardey's book on frugal sailing. (Cost Conscious Cruiser) They sailed small boats for many years with little or no power operated equipment, only paper charts, sextant & no radio. The idea is that with a simple boat you may always be ready to go. There is almost nothing to prevent you from casting off, nothing is out of order and no circumstance will incapacitate your system. I think its great theory but as your vessel size increases, you need for stuff goes up.
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:17   #131
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

this again - a question only asked by harbor sailors. One thing I've kept off all the boats I've owned is the charts - they're magic, every pencil mark has a special meaning for me alone. If they get too marked up i buy a new one rather than rub anything out. Try looking at your electronic charts in 10 years - what'll you see? (I would have said 30 but they werent around 30 yrs ago were they?)
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:25   #132
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by millhouse_44 View Post
Someone I'm sure already posted this but I didn't read through all nine pages on the thread. For those that want to see the 'big picture' - this link is great:

Navionics Webapp

It has the whole world.

In another life I used paper but after 5 years the chart was completely destroyed even though I was meticulous about caring for it (tubes etc.). Problem for me was when I pulled it out in the cockpit it was exposed (open boat). That was 10 years ago. Now I'm all electronic with quadruple redundancy using main chartplotter (Navionics Gold), iPad (INavX), Cell phone and finally a backup chartplotter just in case the main one fails (I use it on the dinghy for a fishfinder but have the charts just in case). Also have AIS which has its own internal GPS...

I used to be a dinosaur but the world has evolved. If you're relying solely on paper in my opinion you are jeopardizing your safety in some parts of the world as others have said on here.

Safe sailing!

Small Cat Fun
Probably a good point from a dinosaur.
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:31   #133
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

One thing that folks need to be aware of is the survey date of their chart. If it was last surveyed in, for example, 1940, there is a good chance that the GPS position can be out by a long way to the chart. The electronic charts are based on the surveyed paper chart. You may be closer to that reef than you think! Just saying
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:33   #134
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by h20 View Post
Can anyone say what I-pad to get? We use a Garmin now but thought of Ipad for back up. Yes I like the paper charts also, they don't need 12v
So, GEEZ! there seemed like 50 kinds of ipads! I hate my wifes smart phone that does not work! Maybe I should hire a tek E to get it set it up then give a lesson or two, ha, ha
We just got the second generation IPad Air 2. Reason? LONG battery life (14 hours) and super bright screen great for viewing in sunlight.

So far it's awesome. Even if we forget to charge it no worries. Even on 33% we can get a full day's cruising out of it and since it is only the backup anyways no worries.

Small Cat Fun
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Old 03-02-2015, 16:35   #135
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Says who? Please link to international law saying this

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