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Old 03-02-2015, 13:45   #106
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Here is a screenshot of the marina. The entrance is bottom right. He tried to come in from the north. We can get 13.5 foot tides here.

Apparently he had "earned" his Pleasure Craft Operators Card the day before.
Yikes! OK, so in the interests of this thread, how would paper charts have prevented this over electronic?

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Old 03-02-2015, 13:48   #107
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Yikes! OK, so in the interests of this thread, how would paper charts have prevented this over electronic?

Mark
An over zoomed chartplotter might not have shown the entrance. The paper chart would.
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:49   #108
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Yikes! OK, so in the interests of this thread, how would paper charts have prevented this over electronic?

Mark
In exactly the same way as electronic charts would have saved that bloke in NZ.
You make something more foolproof, they'll just send you a bigger fool.
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:53   #109
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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An over zoomed chartplotter might not have shown the entrance. The paper chart would.
I'm sorry, but that is a weak argument! Your first picture clearly shows that isn't the entrance, shows the correct entrance - and it shows that the chart is "OVERZOOMED"!

Even if zoomed right into the maximum, it would show that was not the entrance to the marina. In fact, there is only one more zoom level available - at which point one would be operating at a view scale of 50-100 meters. The next level out shows the marina with the entrance (and is still overzoomed).

You don't need to see the entrance to know what is not an entrance…

BTW, out of the box, OCPN doesn't allow charts to be over-zoomed. Your brainiac operator here would have to figure out how to enable the ability to over-zoom in the settings.

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Old 03-02-2015, 13:54   #110
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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We have many paper chart users who are at the same time happy users of electronic charts and of electronic position finding systems.

We have some electronic chart users who are very unhappy about paper charts still being around.

Why this asymmetry?

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

b.
I have not detected "electronic chart users who are very unhappy about paper charts still being around" in this thread. Maybe I am suffering from Cognitive Bias.

Totally unbiased view of dependence on electronics comes from the aviation world. Commercial aviation usually lags the marine world in adopting new systems because of the very rigorous certification process.

To get such systems approved for use in commercial aviation regulatory authorities require exhaustive analysis of failure modes be evaluated to objectively prove that safety is improved, or at least not degraded. The industry since 2012 is moving to use of Electronic Flight Bags. Electronic Flight Bags mean that their equivalent charts, and much other essential information, is contained in an electronic device carried by the pilots instead of their 35 to 40 pounds of paper documents. They use system redundancy to achieve equivalent or greater safety. For the boating world this means having multiple GPS receivers, multiple chart plotters, and multiple sources of electric power readily available may give you a greater chance of having essential information, when needed, than going to a paper chart.
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:04   #111
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I'm not sure there is a valid parallel between commercial aviation and recreational boating. Maybe with commercial shipping.

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Old 03-02-2015, 14:09   #112
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I'm sorry, but that is a weak argument! Your first picture clearly shows that isn't the entrance, shows the correct entrance - and it shows that the chart is "OVERZOOMED"!

Even if zoomed right into the maximum, it would show that was not the entrance to the marina. In fact, there is only one more zoom level available - at which point one would be operating at a view scale of 50-100 meters. The next level out shows the marina with the entrance (and is still overzoomed).

You don't need to see the entrance to know what is not an entrance…

BTW, out of the box, OCPN doesn't allow charts to be over-zoomed. Your brainiac operator here would have to figure out how to enable the ability to over-zoom in the settings.

Mark
That is my desktop OpenCPN using raster charts. I presume he would have a built-in chartplotter using vectors charts. I know from experience in that marina that you can zoom in and lose the marina entrance with chartplotters.

Having "earned" his PCOC the day before, he is most likely a new boater with a new boat entering a new marina.
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:15   #113
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Maybe with commercial shipping.

Mark
In Canada the use of ECDIS requires equipment and power redundancy, and it requires the use of ENC charts by trained personnel.

Without that, paper publications still required, unless you meet the exemptions.
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:20   #114
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

BTW - this photo is from the helm of Canadian Coast Guard cutter at Bamfield. Notice the label under the chartplotter.



The officer in charge of the base told me that they have been taken to task for laminating their paper charts as it made making corrections impossible.

And these guys know Barkley Sound very well.
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:21   #115
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Says who? Please link to international law saying this
And who said the more current info. is there when the electronics take a ****. I'd rather have info. taken with a lead line than nothing.
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:22   #116
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I know from experience in that marina that you can zoom in and lose the marina entrance with chartplotters.
Sure, but my point was - can you zoom in so far that you cannot see what is NOT an entrance?

BTW, the vector charts show that place as worse solid ground than your raster charts.

There is no way anyone could possibly mistake that for an entrance using electronic charts.

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Old 03-02-2015, 14:30   #117
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Our GPS uses 0.16 amps (<4A/day). How much electrical conservation is required?

There has been some discussion about Canada requiring paper charts, but even that seems to be with a lot of confusion. Can you list other countries that require recreational craft to have full official hydrographic paper charts of the regions they are operating in?

Mark
Eroupe, New Zeland/Oz, for sure. Asia, S & central America, Africa and most of the Caribbian - Almost certain (but might not be all countries) Any signitary to IMO/SOLAS which I though included USA. Have I missed any?

There are a few exceptions such as carts not being updated due to not being able to get Notices To Mariners offshore.

An EDICS system with VECTOR Charts is classed as having official charts because the are electronic versions of paper charts and are displayed on a secure system. If you have $10-20K to spend and the space that's fine. Chartplotters and laptops are not secure system and use VECTOR charts which are NOT official charts. They are great and I use they all the time but the advice is that they are vulnerable on a small boat and you should back them up/check them against the official charts (but you don't need all of them!). It is prudent seamanship, like plotting your position with 2 independent sources not just relying on the GPS.
The point is not whether it is 'law' or if you will get prosecuted it is whether it is safer.
You will also notice that whenever you turn on a chartplotter or computer nav system you have to acknowledge the guidelines and understand the risk of relying soley on it for nav, that's a legally required warning not just layers avoiding liability.
And yes I carry and can use a sextant. It is still required training for ships officers to be able to do so and there systems are way more reliable than ours.
As aways the sea is the final arbiter of you preperations
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:36   #118
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Eroupe, New Zeland/Oz, for sure. Asia, S & central America, Africa and most of the Caribbian - Almost certain (but might not be all countries) Any signitary to IMO/SOLAS which I though included USA. Have I missed any?

There are a few exceptions such as carts not being updated due to not being able to get Notices To Mariners offshore.

An EDICS system with VECTOR Charts is classed as having official charts because the are electronic versions of paper charts and are displayed on a secure system. If you have $10-20K to spend and the space that's fine. Chartplotters and laptops are not secure system and use VECTOR charts which are NOT official charts. They are great and I use they all the time but the advice is that they are vulnerable on a small boat and you should back them up/check them against the official charts (but you don't need all of them!). It is prudent seamanship, like plotting your position with 2 independent sources not just relying on the GPS.
The point is not whether it is 'law' or if you will get prosecuted it is whether it is safer.
You will also notice that whenever you turn on a chartplotter or computer nav system you have to acknowledge the guidelines and understand the risk of relying soley on it for nav, that's a legally required warning not just layers avoiding liability.
And yes I carry and can use a sextant. It is still required training for ships officers to be able to do so and there systems are way more reliable than ours.
As aways the sea is the final arbiter of you preperations
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Old 03-02-2015, 14:37   #119
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Eroupe, New Zeland/Oz, for sure. Asia, S & central America, Africa and most of the Caribbian - Almost certain (but might not be all countries) Any signitary to IMO/SOLAS which I though included USA. Have I missed any?
Are you talking about commercial shipping or recreational boating? I can assure you that several of those countries you list have no such requirement for recreational boating.

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Old 03-02-2015, 14:40   #120
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Denmark. Requires thar you Carry paper charts
In a jon boat? In a bow rider? Pontoon boat?

Please post a link. Anybody post a link. A link to a law requiring people in small boats to carry paper charts.
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