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Old 03-02-2015, 11:50   #91
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
A handheld GPS using C-cells!!! You get the brontosaurus award!

Mark

I didn't like it but I was glad it was there when the other devices didn't work. I will rarely use paper charts now except for planning purposes AND have on hand coming and going into harbors.

If others feel like they can reasonably start up a new backup electronic device if the active one they are using goes tits up rounding the first of several day marks coming in to a difficult harbor, that is their choice.

BTW - GPS is not a chartplotter per se. The one we used did not have charts on it, so it was in fact a very old brontosaurus. The display was tiny and B&W, making it an ancient brontosaurus.

It seems that all charts readily available in the US and Canada (and may be elsewhere), whether paper or electronic, are based on digital databases. So that there is only one version of the raster charts and the presentation is a decision by the boat skipper. Paper is one form a database. Pretty old school but it has its uses. I'll die and go to heaven when all my electronics work as reliably - for the purpose I need.

A side note: it took me one nanosecond to appreciate word processors when they very first appeared and I never, ever went back to a typewriter. It all depends on what you are doing. And this despite the many problems with the early word processors. I guess I am hoping that some of you might see the difference in the discussion. It is apples to oranges. Ditto on the sextant to the GPS. But not ditto on chartplotter redundancy. For this safety at sea issue, IMHO the electronics are not to the point of fail safe that I would totally exclude paper from my world.

But it's a skipper's choice in any case but please don't start throwing innuendos around about us dinosaurs. I have very valid reasons for my opinions. Your opinions are your opinions. Just because it is electronic doesn't mean it is better.
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Old 03-02-2015, 12:00   #92
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
A side note: it took me one nanosecond to appreciate word processors when they very first appeared and I never, ever went back to a typewriter.
And I bet you are using your Wang right alongside your C-cell GPS!

Note for the younger moderators: I was not using the term "wang" in the way you are thinking, so don't delete my post!

Mark
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Old 03-02-2015, 12:18   #93
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
And I bet you are using your Wang right alongside your C-cell GPS!

Note for the younger moderators: I was not using the term "wang" in the way you are thinking, so don't delete my post!

Mark

Mark, you certainly have a way with words that makes me want to like you and appreciate your opinions.

You weren't there. I didn't have your iPad or your brains. I had to make do with my limited capabilities and this old clunky GPS but we got there. The boat's electrical system and iPad weren't up to the job. What, exactly, would you have done?

I left the Wang at home. Do you still use yours? And what exactly was your point in saying that? Make you feel better?
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Old 03-02-2015, 12:31   #94
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

We have many paper chart users who are at the same time happy users of electronic charts and of electronic position finding systems.

We have some electronic chart users who are very unhappy about paper charts still being around.

Why this asymmetry?

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old 03-02-2015, 12:40   #95
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Mark, you certainly have a way with words that makes me want to like you and appreciate your opinions.

You weren't there. I didn't have your iPad or your brains. I had to make do with my limited capabilities and this old clunky GPS but we got there. The boat's electrical system and iPad weren't up to the job. What, exactly, would you have done?

I left the Wang at home. Do you still use yours? And what exactly was your point in saying that? Make you feel better?
I'm sorry, I don't think my humor was coming through well. I wasn't making fun of you at all, and was implying the dinosaur humor as a badge of honor - not derision.

Those of us of a certain age had the fortune to come up through the entire growth of electronics. As such, we remember these systems and have a much greater appreciation (and possibly knowledge) of both older and newer generations of them than do younger people.

The fact that you still possess a C-cell GPS and have used a Wang word processor ranks high in my book!

Same with rotary dial phones (which I bet you still have squirreled away somewhere…)!

BTW, I just got my first iPad a few months ago, still use a cellular flip-phone and have never even used a smartphone (I did touch one once in a store). I also don't have twitter, instagram, etc accounts and don't even see the whole point of their existence (in this way, I am that slice of the bell curve slowly clearing the way for the next generation…).



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Old 03-02-2015, 12:43   #96
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
We have many paper chart users who are at the same time happy users of electronic charts and of electronic position finding systems.

We have some electronic chart users who are very unhappy about paper charts still being around.

Why this asymmetry?

Cognitive bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

b.
You are projecting and taking things out of context. There is nobody here (yet) who is "unhappy" that paper charts still exist. Some of us have argued that they are unnecessary.

However, there are people here who seem unhappy that there are boats out there without paper charts on board. To the point of calling it unsafe and unseaman-like.

The fact that you don't see this is defined and explained perfectly in your URL link.

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Old 03-02-2015, 13:08   #97
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I remember when Telegrams stop being sent and wondered how the world would survive.
When was the last time you wrote a handwritten letter?
Polaroid cameras... Well all film cameras.

Lots more things too... Have look at the attached list
I still do 16 out of those 50
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:15   #98
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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True ... although clearly there is more idiocy going on here than lack of charts. Eyes would have told him/her all they needed to know.
The rocks are covered at high tide.
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:23   #99
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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The rocks are covered at high tide.
Even that breakwall the boat is just a few inches from?

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Old 03-02-2015, 13:27   #100
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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As for that ship aground, do you know the story on it? I find it difficult to believe that the captain steered it inches away from an obvious breakwater - and can only surmise that it happened at high tide with all the other rocks underwater and not breaking. Perhaps it dragged anchor or was thrown up on a storm? If not, then it represents an eye-popping navigational error.

Mark
Here is a screenshot of the marina. The entrance is bottom right. He tried to come in from the north. We can get 13.5 foot tides here.



Apparently he had "earned" his Pleasure Craft Operators Card the day before.
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:32   #101
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Here is a shot slightly zoomed out showing the buoys marking the entrance and the aid at the end of the breakwater.

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Old 03-02-2015, 13:34   #102
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You cherry-picked my quote to make one part of it relate to a different part, and then used it against me.

Not nice. And very transparent.

Mark
No, I just try not to quote entire posts as it is a waste of electrons or whatever....
Not a good idea to use him as an example of the shortcomings of paper charts ... if he had been using an electronic chart he would most likely have over zoomed and still ended up on the rocks.
The article said he was 'experienced' and you also quoted that... the facts of his stranding say otherwise.....
Just a bad example for you to have chosen is all.....
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:38   #103
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Our GPS uses 0.16 amps (<4A/day). How much electrical conservation is required?

There has been some discussion about Canada requiring paper charts, but even that seems to be with a lot of confusion. Can you list other countries that require recreational craft to have full official hydrographic paper charts of the regions they are operating in?

Mark
Denmark. Requires thar you Carry paper charts
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:40   #104
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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What is the "one inch rule"? Sounds important.
I'm glad someone has finally asked about 'Ping's One Inch Rule'

Back in the days when paper charts were all there was I developed this rule.

It states 'Regardless of the scale of chart in use stay one inch off the land or any dangers'.

Chart of the world or a harbour plan it always worked for me.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to translate that well into the digital chart world.
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Old 03-02-2015, 13:40   #105
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Your information is old. Since 2012 S-57 charts are accepted internationally without needing paper backup, and they can be run on OpenCpn.

Happily for the American fraternity they can download S-57 charts FREE, whack 'em straight into OpenCpn and I think they are then updated automatically.

The other change in 2012 made it compulsory for commercial vessels to have S-57 charts. They can now ditch their paper charts.

Finally the British hydrographers office says S-57 charts carry MORE information that paper charts! Particularly with notes to sailors. Even CM93 charts have MORE info than paper in the Object Query dialogue.

So OFFICIALLY you can ditch paper if you have S-57


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Says who? Please link to international law saying this
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