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Old 03-02-2015, 10:13   #76
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
. Unless you run a commercial ECDIS system it is illegal in many countries to navigate without paper charts on board, or rather official hydrographic charts which a chart plotter cartridge is not. We have few rules at sea but the ones we do have are there for good reason.
Your information is old. Since 2012 S-57 charts are accepted internationally without needing paper backup, and they can be run on OpenCpn.

Happily for the American fraternity they can download S-57 charts FREE, whack 'em straight into OpenCpn and I think they are then updated automatically.

The other change in 2012 made it compulsory for commercial vessels to have S-57 charts. They can now ditch their paper charts.

Finally the British hydrographers office says S-57 charts carry MORE information that paper charts! Particularly with notes to sailors. Even CM93 charts have MORE info than paper in the Object Query dialogue.

So OFFICIALLY you can ditch paper if you have S-57


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Old 03-02-2015, 10:17   #77
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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That's called crowd-sourcing, and I can't wait for it to penetrate deeper into our market -- it offers tremendous possibilities.
Crowd-sourcing is one branch of it, but there are also commercial enterprises actively surveying areas with the intent of providing a proprietary product.

I think the latter will be more effective - at least in the short term, although my heart goes to the former.

Either way, I suspect both will out-strip government bodies in many areas - and none will be offering paper services.

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Old 03-02-2015, 10:19   #78
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Do you know of any recreational boater being charged under this law Jackdale? More importantly, has anyone ever been convicted? I've never heard of such a thing, but you are better placed to know.

I do recall a comment in a TSB accident report regarding a recreational boater lacking the appropriate charts, but I cannot recall exactly which one.

I do not know of anyone being charged / convicted after an inspection.

I might expect that a vessel running aground without the appropriate charts might have a big issue with the insurance company.

Clearly this guy has neither charts nor local knowledge when he tried to enter the north end of Port Sidney.



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Old 03-02-2015, 10:29   #79
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

fact: navigator on the Volvo 65 vestas racing hit a charted reef doing 19 knots using electronic charts
fact; the reef is noted on the admiralty chart of that area
fact: several cruise ships have run aground due to signal interference and wrong position was sent down to the GPS on board. Fact: the latest issue of USCG Proceeding is all about cyber security and how the GPS system is vulnerable to attack
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:43   #80
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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fact: navigator on the Volvo 65 vestas racing hit a charted reef doing 19 knots using electronic charts
fact; the reef is noted on the admiralty chart of that area
fact: several cruise ships have run aground due to signal interference and wrong position was sent down to the GPS on board. Fact: the latest issue of USCG Proceeding is all about cyber security and how the GPS system is vulnerable to attack
Fact: Vestas hit a charted reef doing 19kts using paper charts. They were being used with the same care and expertise as their electronic charts were.

Fact: Vestas had that admiralty chart on board.

Fact: please provide examples of all these cruise ships running aground due to GPS issues - they seem to be keeping themselves out of the news and out of the lawsuits.

Fact: the US has only one of several GPS systems in use. The one small part of the entire USCG cyber security proceedings related to GPS is about spoofing and jamming attacks on individual ships - not on bringing down the constellation itself. Spoofing and jamming involve being very close to a victim and are of short-range, targeted use. Cyber attacks on the constellation itself are almost impossible.

Real facts please - not made-up conveniences that fit your narrative.

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Old 03-02-2015, 10:50   #81
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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...Clearly this guy has neither charts nor local knowledge when he tried to enter the north end of Port Sidney.


True ... although clearly there is more idiocy going on here than lack of charts. Eyes would have told him/her all they needed to know.
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:50   #82
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I do recall a comment in a TSB accident report regarding a recreational boater lacking the appropriate charts, but I cannot recall exactly which one.

I do not know of anyone being charged / convicted after an inspection.

I might expect that a vessel running aground without the appropriate charts might have a big issue with the insurance company.

Clearly this guy has neither charts nor local knowledge when he tried to enter the north end of Port Sidney.
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I assume you mean having problems with the insurance company for not having the appropriate PAPER charts? Somehow, I doubt that only having proper electronic charts would be a problem with insurance. Particularly if there are no formal findings or charges.

As for that ship aground, do you know the story on it? I find it difficult to believe that the captain steered it inches away from an obvious breakwater - and can only surmise that it happened at high tide with all the other rocks underwater and not breaking. Perhaps it dragged anchor or was thrown up on a storm? If not, then it represents an eye-popping navigational error.

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Old 03-02-2015, 10:52   #83
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by bsurvey View Post
fact: navigator on the Volvo 65 vestas racing hit a charted reef doing 19 knots using electronic charts
fact; the reef is noted on the admiralty chart of that area
fact: several cruise ships have run aground due to signal interference and wrong position was sent down to the GPS on board. Fact: the latest issue of USCG Proceeding is all about cyber security and how the GPS system is vulnerable to attack
Well, this is a completely different issue.

I am also nervous about the integrity of the GPS system, but I don't think celestial navigation is the answer. On the contrary, I use more technology to reinforce GPS -- I have a couple of GNSS receivers on board which receive the Russian GLONASS system, and which will receive the European Galileo system (if the Europeans ever get it running). My main source of position data for my network is a Simrad GS25 (giving me a position accurate to 1.8 meters as I sit here).

I do think, however, that good sailors should be able to keep off the rocks without electronic navigation. I think celestial is already really unnecessary, but you should be able to take a three-point fix and do clearing bearings, and do DR. None of this is hard, and you might well need it someday.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:09   #84
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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When this age group of cruisers die off they will take paper charts with them.

The younger generation don't use paper in any form anymore. Even schools are stopping teaching running writing (cursive)... But its taken afull generation of teachers to die before the new methods can be allowed. Can you guess what goes on in the heads of old teachers? Oh, yes, printing may be better but they should still know cursive!

Paper charts are not being made anymore, they are just prints of ECN charts. All they are is another way at looking at information. People 30 and under just dont wish to learn an archaic method when they can have ECN in their hand on their smart phone. "Ahhh yes, but its not BIG enough" well, just project the f'ing image on the wall from your computer or phone.

So if the centre of the bell curve of cruisers is 60 to 75 it gives 15 years for paper to be totally removed from boats imho. It may happen sooner if some dopey old bugger is sued for crashing his boat while navigating with paper instead of ECN and AIS. Lock a few of the old bums in jail and paper charts will be consigned to where they ought to be: Land fill.
At least we won't die off as quickly as the next generation because we had paper charts when we really needed them.

This old electronics engineer will never be without them because experienced engineers understand that relying absolutely on an onboard power source is the most dangerous situation one can ever put oneself in.

Besides -- as has already been said -- nothing beats paper charts for planning and getting "the big picture."
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:13   #85
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I hope paper stays around. They don't go blank from equipment or system failures.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:34   #86
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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This is precisely what route planning software is good at. Most will allow you to set a minimum depth and the software will not plot a route over such areas. I believe such a feature is a ECDIS requirement.

It will plot an optimum route through the archipelago, for your particular boat (from polars) and for the weather conditions expected (from Gribs) (you can even stipulate that you don't want to sail in more than 25kts for example).

This is near impossible on a paper chart

Ask the skipper and XO of the USS Gaurdian how well electronic route planning worked out for them.

I would suggest the same for the skipper of the Aegean but he's not around to answer, nor are any of his crew.


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Old 03-02-2015, 11:38   #87
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by bsurvey View Post
fact: several cruise ships have run aground due to signal interference and wrong position was sent down to the GPS on board. Fact: the latest issue of USCG Proceeding is all about cyber security and how the GPS system is vulnerable to attack
Many people confuse electronic charts with electronic position fixing.

Electronic charts are often used with electronic position fixing systems such as GPS, but the two technologies are quite different. Turn off your GPS and the electronic charts still work. Turn off your electronic charts and the GPS still works.

They are separate systems.

Traditional navigational techniques such a three point fix are easier on paper charts, but they can be be done without too much trouble on electronic charts. Some techniques such as clearance bearings are easier in electronic charts, and less prone to error.

If navigating without GPS I would prefer a paper chart, but the electronic charts are still usable and safe in my view. It is important to practice these procedures as traditional navigation on paper and electronic charts is quite different.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:41   #88
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Looking at things that have trundled off to obscurity in the past 10 years, I am questioning if paper charts have become a Dinosaur as well.

A relic from the past with a price tag that has you questioning their value.

What do you think relic or relevant?

DW
As the usability and reliability of electronic chart systems has improved I'd say that paper charts frequency of use has dropped.

As part of a prudent risk management strategy all vessels should have known and trusted paper charts as a backup. We also have several redundant digital chart options including smart phones, tablets and gps units.

We are less inclined these days to continuously replace them. We do however add notations to our paper charts on an adhoc basis.

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Old 03-02-2015, 11:47   #89
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Well, this is a completely different issue.

I am also nervous about the integrity of the GPS system, but I don't think celestial navigation is the answer. On the contrary, I use more technology to reinforce GPS -- I have a couple of GNSS receivers on board which receive the Russian GLONASS system, and which will receive the European Galileo system (if the Europeans ever get it running). My main source of position data for my network is a Simrad GS25 (giving me a position accurate to 1.8 meters as I sit here).

I do think, however, that good sailors should be able to keep off the rocks without electronic navigation. I think celestial is already really unnecessary, but you should be able to take a three-point fix and do clearing bearings, and do DR. None of this is hard, and you might well need it someday.
The term aid to navigation applies equally well to paper charts as it does to any electronic device or chart.

Unfortunately the hard bits refuse to align perfectly with gps coordinates or map markings.

Looking out the window and being aware of your surroundings is still job 1 when in charge of a vessel.

My wife and I regularly test each other. Practicing a radio call especially a mayday or a medical emergency (without transmitting) sorts the men from the boys. (Girls and women too of course)

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Old 03-02-2015, 11:49   #90
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Paper Charts go well with my Log, Lead, and Lookout!
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