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Old 02-02-2015, 22:55   #31
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Colemj,

To me, what happened with Paul L highlights one reason a person might view some e-charts package deals with suspicion. YMMV

I think e-charts are subject to dangerous mis-use due to what's left out of them and to operator error (for example, Team Vestas). Again, Ymmv.

We use both e-charts and paper. I'd like to see paper charts stay available. Again, YMMV.

Sorry if feel banghead towards me. It is, of course, only my opinion, just as you express yours.

Ann
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Old 02-02-2015, 23:44   #32
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I don't think anyone in this thread or the very many other threads on this topic say to use paper to the exclusion of electronic... them on the 'paper' side of the fence all seem to be saying 'use both'.

Has anyone had a look at where that bloke in Unzud lost his boat? while using a chart covering half of the north island???? I think that is totally outside the scope of this debate and is borderline Darwinian...
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Old 02-02-2015, 23:46   #33
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I was going to ask about that. Certainly nobody is going to have Uncle Bubba carry paper charts in his duck boat. Or a bowrider or pontoon boat.

Yea, I think paper charts are on their way out. Just like the sextant and lead line. It will take a while though.
Hope you never get hit by lightning when your in open sea as you might find these "Outdated items " rather useful as you throw out your fried systems !
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Old 03-02-2015, 00:02   #34
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

We've had these discussions before and never really reach any agreement. I'm a dinosaur and always carry paper charts (I also have a chartplotter that I use all the time).

But as Dockhead noted, I sail in the Baltic. Trying to navigate your way through the archipelagos here without paper charts is simply not on unless you have an extreme affinity for zooming in and out.

When you are dodging in and out between the islands, you can easily get confused, even with you plotter. Having a paper chart at hand gives you the overview you need to decide which of the many channels you need to take.

For those that have never been here - you need to realize there are literally 100's of thousands of islands in the archipelagos and trying to follow even the marked channels is difficult.

I also like paper books and I thoroughly enjoy my paper newspaper in the morning.
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Old 03-02-2015, 00:25   #35
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post

This was a very experienced captain who said: "The wind was good, there was enough moonlight but the navigation chart is on a very big scale with the whole of Northland peninsula on one page without any inserts," he said.

"Vital pieces of information about the island's hydrography is missing that would make it easier, both at night and during the day, for anyone and not just sailors to navigate around."


A cursory look at CM93 charts shows this as very well charted with all of the detail he says are missing from the paper charts......


Of course I know I am wrong on this

Mark
Yup...your wrong

He could have bought a copy of NZ 5121 which is what the CM93 charts of Cavalli Passage are based on https://data.linz.govt.nz/layer/1304...valli-passage/ ....

As I said earlier this bloke is darwin prospect...
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Old 03-02-2015, 01:20   #36
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Hope you never get hit by lightning when your in open sea as you might find these "Outdated items " rather useful as you throw out your fried systems !
I hope never to get hit by lightning but charting a way home isn't my primary concern at that point.

Odds are at least one of our multitude of backups (2laptops, 2 tablets, 2 smartphones, dedicated GPS) will survive well enough to limp home.

I have yet to hear of an all electronic boat that couldn't make a port in an emergency because they didn't have paper charts (and there are a lot of boats not using paper charts)

Paper is on the way out. It's just a matter of time.
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Old 03-02-2015, 01:43   #37
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Paper is on the way out. It's just a matter of time.
Ah, is this like the 'paperless office' we were told about in the computer dream time 30 or so years ago?
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Old 03-02-2015, 02:20   #38
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I started a thread on this same subject nearly three years ago:

Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

There seems to have been a a shift in attitude in this time. While opinion is still divided there is now more support for for the view that "paper is nice to have, but not essential".
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:14   #39
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I started a thread on this same subject nearly three years ago:

Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

There seems to have been a a shift in attitude in this time. While opinion is still divided there is now more support for for the view that "paper is nice to have, but not essential".
ONe excellent reason to have paper charts on board (the old fashioned kind made of thick fuzzy paper) is for use as gasket material. If you have to replace your impleer (or anything else) and don't have a gasket, a chart can be cut and will function perfectly. Don't ask me how I know this

But I keep paper charts to plan my routes and also for navigation (yes, I'm a dinosaur)
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:15   #40
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I seriously think that if you are an offshore sailor, paper charts for the oceans you are crossing and the landfalls you expect to make, should be onboard.
Maybe you don't need to use them, your electronic gizmo is what you use all the time, and it really shows you what's on the paper charts....until it doesn't work...and that's the issue.
An old salt friend, when I would tell him about any electronic/electrical / electromechanical gadget that I'd bought, would say, hmm, ok, so what are you going to do when it doesn't work ?
And that has been my philosophy about everything on the boat ever since.
What are we going to do when it doesn't work?
And that applies to everything from furlers to windlass and electronics.
Paper charts, hand bearing compass, sextant, almanac all cover that territory, and that's why I still carry them, and use them from time to time.
And on passage always keep a running log on a paper chart with position, course, speed and write in the log book about what's going on and what we might expect to come.
This is basic seamanship, and I don't believe you should ever leave it behind.
As Peter would say, so what happens when all the batteries are flat, the engine won't start, the solar panels are cactus from that last wave from hell ??
Think about it....
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:16   #41
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
there is now more support for for the view that "paper is nice to have, but not essential".
Do you have anything to support that view? and no I haven't drilled down into that linked thread.

When I was a pup in small boats I didn't use paper charts... was eyeball pilotage both in in my Popular Mechanics catboat and my Vertue.

When I was in the day job in pilotage waters... was eyeball or radar... we first had ecdis in 1999.

These days in my home ground ( Chilean patagonia) is eyeball..... gps/electronic charts helps work out ETA's and stuff... nada mas....
YMMV
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:45   #42
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I think that paper charts are a threat to modern civilization, and you all should send me all of your paper charts for proper disposal. Having said that, I am in the what do you do if the plotter craps out? Camp. I use plotters, but I still lay out my routes on paper charts and plot my position on paper charts every 4 hours. I also log my position in a paper log book every 2 hours. You all can do what you want, I'll stick with having a back up, and actually knowing how to navigate.
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:35   #43
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I remember when Telegrams stop being sent and wondered how the world would survive.
When was the last time you wrote a handwritten letter?
Polaroid cameras... Well all film cameras.

Lots more things too... Have look at the attached list
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Old 03-02-2015, 05:38   #44
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg
Sounds like he lacked the chart of the appropriate scale...

If he had electronics charts, he wouldn't have been caught out without the correct scale chart. Were you trying to make my point for me?
Maybe... Or, maybe not...

I was glad to have a 'Real Chart' to fill in the blanks on this virtual chart up in Labrador last summer... ;-)






Quote:
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Since I enjoy fencing with you Jon, have you ever re-read any of your postings and think "damn, I sound just like my grandfather"?

We are all clearing the way for change...

Mark
Nah, more like my father, and my older brother, actually... ;-)

Yeah, I come from Old School, for sure... For instance, I'll never forget hearing some advice my dad gave to my brother, when I was way too young to understand what it meant, at the time:

"Never, ever, finance a TOY..."

As a result, I do my cruising aboard a modest boat that I bought for cash... Now, my boat is clearly a 'toy', unlike many others here whose boat is their home... But still, in today's world, 'settling' for something less than I 'could afford' if I were willing to incur debt, clearly brands me as another dinosaur, for sure... ;-)

Hey, whatever works for each of us... A paper chart in conjunction with ECS, a 'real' book in my lap, simply works best for me... Guess I'm just not all that worried about The World Passing Me By...

;-)
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:00   #45
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Ah, is this like the 'paperless office' we were told about in the computer dream time 30 or so years ago?
I didn't say it would happen tomorrow but per your comment: The paperless office was never going to be 100% paperless. That was a catchphrase. Reality is the paperless office has snuck up on you without you even realizing it.

20yrs ago, the office I worked in had a shared printer for every 4 people plus photocopiers. I printed things several times per day.

10yrs ago, only important people got a personal printer, the rest shared central printers among 15-20 people. I printed a few times a week.

This past year when I was working in the office, we had one printer/copier/scaner for an office of 60. I printed something maybe every other week. Most reviews are done electronically via PDF. It seems that except for a few of the old guys, most printing is for items that need a signature but even that is starting to go electronic.

By the same token, I'm sure 20yrs from now, you will have the occasional dinosaur who swears by paper charts but I believe the transition is going even faster with boats because protecting and storing expensive paper charts uses up valuable interior space for an item that isn't as up to date and is less useful...where as when they redid the cubicles at the office, they only provided one shelf overhead and a single drawer (most of which sit empty) compared to previous setup which had multiple overhead shelves and drawers and many also had a bookcase.
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