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Old 08-02-2015, 13:10   #286
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I don't care whether people use electronics, paper, or stone tablets... and I'm not out to save anyone's life with my wisdom beyond theirs. I doubt if most accidents are caused primarily by the type of charts one uses.
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Old 08-02-2015, 13:20   #287
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by jkindredpdx View Post
My apologies... but he did ask?

BTW. I don't care whether people use electronics, paper, or stone tablets... and I'm not out to save anyone's life with my wisdom beyond theirs. I doubt if most accidents are caused primarily by the type of charts one uses.
Yup, charting systems don't sink boats, people sink boats....

I don't give a monkey's what other people are doing... I do what suits me best.
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Old 08-02-2015, 14:15   #288
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I don't care whether people use electronics, paper, or stone tablets... and I'm not out to save anyone's life with my wisdom beyond theirs. I doubt if most accidents are caused primarily by the type of charts one uses.
Wise words!!

I'm not, either -- I have my own way of working with charts, which I would not seek to impose on someone else. I do not presume to know everything about it. It is idiotic to divide up into camps and snipe at each other.

I have always used paper charts for planning, have always found them far superior for this purpose, and have always found electronic charts ranging from unsatisfactory for planning in complex waters to impossible to use in very complex waters.

But I have recently been struggling hard to improve my electronic charting setup and methods to get over those problems, and reduce my dependency on paper.

The reason is that I'm now cruising far and wide and over a larger area than is really convenient to have paper for every corner. Plus, I don't like the storage and organization of paper. Not to mention the cost!

Someone on one of these (endless) paper vs electronic threads a couple of years ago suggested that the crucial advantage of paper would disappear if you had a large and high enough resolution monitor. I am finding that there is a certain amount of truth in that. Plus in OpenCPN there are controls which allow you to declutter a vector chart differently to reduce the zoom problem.

I have a 32" 4k (4,000 lines UHD) monitor on a bulkhead, and find that you can see an incredible amount of detail on it, at least when you're using a raster chart. The amount of pixels available is not orders of magnitude off of paper (assuming 300 dpi printing and Admiralty Size charts). This is something very new -- just a couple of years ago such monitors cost tens of thousands; now they are a few hundred. Raster charts and this amount of pixels almost eliminate the drawbacks of electronic charts; vector charts not yet, not by a long shot, but I am still experimenting. This is all described on the other thread.

Based on this experience, I am going to upgrade my nav table monitor from 23" and HD (1080 lines) to 23" and UHD (4000 lines), as the HD monitor doesn't reveal all the detail in the raster charts.

All this is a long way of saying that I am very sympathetic to the defenders of paper on here, but at the same time I think eventually paper will become less and less essential.

Naturally you have the problem of what happens if your electronics go down. This is certainly an argument in favor of paper, but this disadvantage of electronics can be greatly mitigated with enough redundancy.

Besides that, as I posted earlier in this thread, I have enough basic navigation and pilotage skills (having learned to sail in a boat which had nothing but a compass) to get home and get into port without any charts or instruments at all, and I bet most of us do.

Even if we don't have paper charts, we probably have paper pilot books with port chartlets, don't we, at least? I actually had to exercise this skill last summer when I found myself in the middle of the Baltic with no charts of any kind -- I had a brand new Navionics Gold "Entire Baltic" chip I had bought in Kiel, but failed to read the fine print which said that Denmark is not included (some "entire Baltic"! ). I sailed off the edge of the chart into Mare Incognitum just as dark was falling. I had some paper charts of the Baltic, but none (at that moment) of Danish waters. I managed to avoid obstacles like a wind farm, and find and get into a port, through a complicated, poorly buoyed network of channels between shoals and rocks, and get the anchor down -- in a gale, and at night. I won't say that there weren't frightening moments, but I think that most of us can do it in a pinch. So I don't think it's worth going completely crazy worrying about what will happen if some freak occurrence results in our losing all of our charts.

The other reason to go over to electronic charts is that they are vastly easier to keep updated. Who of you who sails primarily with paper actually reads all the Notices to Mariners and keeps up with corrections? I've never met a single leisure sailor who did. I have hundreds of paper charts on board; it would be a full time job. As a result, like most leisure sailors, I have always just used charts that are three, four, five and more years old. I had never thought too much about it, but you know that's dangerous.

So whatever methods and tools you use for charts, there are calculated risks, which are pretty hard to avoid entirely.
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Old 08-02-2015, 14:25   #289
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Well...

One computer year is about seventeen dog years.
lol... true!
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Old 08-02-2015, 17:10   #290
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Jon,

Attached are the raster and zoomed out vector charts of that region that I borrowed off of another poster. Yes, the reef is "more" obvious on the raster chart, but would you blithely ignore a route drawn through that region on that vector chart?

The statements about "how do you know to zoom in when you don't see anything there" is just foolish given the attached chart.

I guess we just disagree on what minimum level of situational awareness and alertness are required for navigation.

Mark

Is the vector screen shot from the same make and model of chart plotter as was used on VESTAS?


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Old 08-02-2015, 17:19   #291
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Re: being credited with the not caring what type of chart someone is using. That wisdom was not mine. I just ed it. I don't want credit for someone else wisdom.
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Old 08-02-2015, 17:28   #292
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I don't want credit for someone else wisdom.
I'll take it.
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Old 08-02-2015, 18:21   #293
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
Is the vector screen shot from the same make and model of chart plotter as was used on VESTAS?
The CM93 chart I posted was being viewed in OCPN.

As far as I know, Vestas was using Expedition software on a computer. I don't know what charts they were using with it.

It has nothing to do with the brand or model of chart plotter - it is about the chart itself.

Having a bad or inappropriate electronic chart is no different than the same in paper.

For example, earlier in this thread I posted an example of someone bricking their boat on a reef because they had an inappropriate paper chart for that region.

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Old 08-02-2015, 20:38   #294
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Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Sorry wrong post
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Old 09-02-2015, 18:31   #295
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Jon,

Attached are the raster and zoomed out vector charts of that region that I borrowed off of another poster. Yes, the reef is "more" obvious on the raster chart, but would you blithely ignore a route drawn through that region on that vector chart?
Well, I'd say "More obvious" is putting it rather blithely ;-) The raster - which of course is in effect a paper chart displayed electronically - clearly indicates the 'terrain' of an archipelago, 2 lighthouses, and the 2 islands they are situated on are clearly named/labeled... In comparison, the vector shows only an indistinct blue 'blob', and the notation "Cargados Carajos Shoals."..

But thanks for posting those 2 side by side, it's a fairly striking example of the point I've tried to make, that raster/paper charts when compared with vector eCharts of the same scale, almost always display a far greater amount detail and information...

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The statements about "how do you know to zoom in when you don't see anything there" is just foolish given the attached chart.
Funny, that pretty much what the OBR on DONGFENG said, in the wake of the VESTAS grounding:

Quote:
Dongfeng Race Team reporter Yann Riou notes how they also had the Cargados Carajos Shoals directly in their path. “Skipper Charles Caudrelier had noticed this archipelago a few days earlier, but it’s worth noting that it’s actually pretty hard to find. In fact, to see it on our electronic charts, you have to zoom right in on top of it. But how and why would you zoom into it if you don’t know it’s there in the first place? So whilst we don’t know exactly what happened on Vestas, we can imagine how it happened.”

- See more at: Questions asked about Volvo Ocean Race accident >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I guess we just disagree on what minimum level of situational awareness and alertness are required for navigation.

Mark
No, I don't think so at all... I think situational awareness is of the utmost importance, as well...

However, a big part of situational awareness can often involve maximizing the degree to which one might keep their eyes outside of the boat, and limiting the time spent focused on a computer or chartplotter screen... The less time spent panning and zooming in an effort to locate or determine the existence of a cluster of islands and reefs that is clearly visible at a quick glance upon a paper chart of an entire freakin' ocean, the more time available to maintain the requisite "situational awareness" of the real world surrounding the boat, no?

;-)
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Old 09-02-2015, 19:48   #296
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Well, I'd say "More obvious" is putting it rather blithely ;-) The raster - which of course is in effect a paper chart displayed electronically - clearly indicates the 'terrain' of an archipelago, 2 lighthouses, and the 2 islands they are situated on are clearly named/labeled... In comparison, the vector shows only an indistinct blue 'blob', and the notation "Cargados Carajos Shoals."..

But thanks for posting those 2 side by side, it's a fairly striking example of the point I've tried to make, that raster/paper charts when compared with vector eCharts of the same scale, almost always display a far greater amount detail and information...



Funny, that pretty much what the OBR on DONGFENG said, in the wake of the VESTAS grounding:



No, I don't think so at all... I think situational awareness is of the utmost importance, as well...

However, a big part of situational awareness can often involve maximizing the degree to which one might keep their eyes outside of the boat, and limiting the time spent focused on a computer or chartplotter screen... The less time spent panning and zooming in an effort to locate or determine the existence of a cluster of islands and reefs that is clearly visible at a quick glance upon a paper chart of an entire freakin' ocean, the more time available to maintain the requisite "situational awareness" of the real world surrounding the boat, no?

;-)
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:55   #297
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Well, I'd say "More obvious" is putting it rather blithely ;-) The raster - which of course is in effect a paper chart displayed electronically - clearly indicates the 'terrain' of an archipelago, 2 lighthouses, and the 2 islands they are situated on are clearly named/labeled... In comparison, the vector shows only an indistinct blue 'blob', and the notation "Cargados Carajos Shoals."..

But thanks for posting those 2 side by side, it's a fairly striking example of the point I've tried to make, that raster/paper charts when compared with vector eCharts of the same scale, almost always display a far greater amount detail and information...

Funny, that pretty much what the OBR on DONGFENG said, in the wake of the VESTAS grounding:

No, I don't think so at all... I think situational awareness is of the utmost importance, as well...

However, a big part of situational awareness can often involve maximizing the degree to which one might keep their eyes outside of the boat, and limiting the time spent focused on a computer or chartplotter screen... The less time spent panning and zooming in an effort to locate or determine the existence of a cluster of islands and reefs that is clearly visible at a quick glance upon a paper chart of an entire freakin' ocean, the more time available to maintain the requisite "situational awareness" of the real world surrounding the boat, no?
I've never argued that vector charts show all the detail at all levels that raster charts do - that is the whole point and advantage of vector charts, which provide MUCH more usability and information overall compared to raster and paper charts.

However, vector charts do not leave one as blind as you and Dongfeng lead people to believe. The statement by Dongfeng was just stupid and inaccurate. Vector charts give you specific warnings of these things, although they are not as detailed as raster at all levels. To ignore clear warnings does not make any sense.

Tell me - would you plot a predominantly open-ocean, deep water route straight through that blue blob labeled "Cargados Carajos Shoals" without any further investigation? Even if you refused to zoom in one more level to see it clearly, wouldn't you consult a pilot or similar to see just what the heck "Cargados Carajos Shoals" WAS?

The answer to this is key in this debate.

I disagree with your assessment that one would have more time to maintain situational awareness if they had a paper/raster chart (which they did). They would see the shoal, but then need to plot a route around it - the same as they would need to do if they didn't completely ignore that big blue, clearly labeled, warning area on their vector chart.

And this wasn't a "all hands on deck" type of thing. When they rounded Mauritius, they had 350 miles until bricking up on that shoal. Even at their speed of 15-20kts, that is over 16 hours. Certainly someone could have taken a cursory look at the planned route in that time, or took proper advantage of their navigational tools? Heck, who even navigates underway with the plotter set to the whole ocean?

BTW, there is no "panning and zooming" required to actually find that shoal. One only needs to center on it in the big ocean (like the example I showed) and press the zoom button once or twice and there it is. Probably takes less time than it would to unroll a paper chart. For a dinosaur like you, I know I'm talking Greek here…

In fact, if they were using a paper chart, they would take more time away from situational awareness because they would need to measure and transfer waypoints from paper to electronic - with all the attendant error possibilities inherent in doing so.

The Vestas thing was a cock-up of major proportions that had nothing at all to do with electronic vs paper. There were many things that could have kept them off that shoal - including just paying attention to their depth sounder.

It may ease their conscious, and reinforce some people's narrative, to blame it on electronic charts, but there is nothing to bear this out as the cause.

Mark
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:23   #298
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
However, a big part of situational awareness can often involve maximizing the degree to which one might keep their eyes outside of the boat, and limiting the time spent focused on a computer or chartplotter screen... The less time spent panning and zooming in an effort to locate or determine the existence of a cluster of islands and reefs that is clearly visible at a quick glance upon a paper chart of an entire freakin' ocean, the more time available to maintain the requisite "situational awareness" of the real world surrounding the boat, no?
I find "situational awareness" is better with electronic charts. The chart can be seen outside while in the cockpit, and electronic charts also have the advantage of displaying your current GPS position in real time without any need to take time away to dive down to the chart table where the visibility is non existent in most yachts.

In a tight navigational situation that gives the user of an electronic chart more time to check bearings etc. This is especially true if there are other problems such as traffic which might require a deviation from the ideal route.

The main problem with electronic charts is that people blindly believe the little icon on the screen accurately reflects their position. It often does, but not always. Paper charts for some reason seem to encourage more healthy skepticism. This is not a problem with the hardware, more an issue of attitude.
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:26   #299
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

We had two more instances of a boat running aground on the reef here last week. Both cases, the guy was following a chart plotter with software sold to them by Garmin in the US.

Never had that happen with paper charts. Maybe because people don't actually "drive" their boats while staring at a paper chart like it's some kind of IFR device that will navigate them to the end of a runway.

People DO drive cars and boats while staring at electronic displays. Twice last week here, that caused hitting reefs and near sinking.

Bayou Lady is sitting in the boatyard about 900 yards from me right now. With the bottom torn out.
I have to wonder, if this guy had been planning his approach to the islands with a paper chart, would he have just blindly somehow followed that onto the reef? No. Probably not.

Electronic charts are dependent upon a number of other systems working before they function at all. You have to have power, connection, antenna, and of course, satellite reception.

Paper charts? Totally stand alone.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:01   #300
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

You know, if you prefer paper charts to electronic charts and a chart potter, that's just fine. It's your choice. If you prefer electronic charts on a chart plotter, that's just fine also. Choosing over the other doesn't make someone better than someone else. Arguing about people's choice is silly and doesn't change anyone's mind.
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