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Old 02-02-2015, 14:41   #16
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Canadian Chart Requirements:
There are exemptions for under 100 tons, local knowledge. You can look up Canadian Shipping Acts on line and decide for yourself.
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Old 02-02-2015, 15:12   #17
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
Canadian Chart Requirements:
There are exemptions for under 100 tons, local knowledge. You can look up Canadian Shipping Acts on line and decide for yourself.
I was going to ask about that. Certainly nobody is going to have Uncle Bubba carry paper charts in his duck boat. Or a bowrider or pontoon boat.

Yea, I think paper charts are on their way out. Just like the sextant and lead line. It will take a while though.
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Old 02-02-2015, 15:33   #18
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
Canadian Chart Requirements:
There are exemptions for under 100 tons, local knowledge. You can look up Canadian Shipping Acts on line and decide for yourself.
I posted the link a few messages back. It's typically ambiguous, but I have never ... ever ... never, heard of any Canadian marine law enforcement even asking about this issue. Has anyone?
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Old 02-02-2015, 15:37   #19
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
You may be right Mark, but deals like the guy who started the thread about losing faith in electronic charts the other day, who paid a bunch of bucks and specifically wanted Easter Island included, found that what he paid for that was supposed to include it, didn't. Fortunately, Paul, discovered it was missing before running into the bloody island in the middle of the night.

Other CF'ers posted chartlets for him, suggested carrying paper, getting the pilot books, and so forth.

I think we'll be d--n stupid to totally give up on paper charts. It's not that they're so fantastically great, but they do have utility for passage planning, seeing the larger picture, and as backup. They require no electricity. They are not subject to electronics crashing (as can happen from lightning, as well as other causes).

Ann
I don't understand at all how Paul's issue with a chart not being included in a electronic package from a single vendor, when it was advertised so as to lead one to believe it would be, has anything to do with this topic or supporting paper charts. I have bought paper chart packs that did not include all charts of a region.

I probably won't be long for this thread because battling bad reasoning exhausts me, but consider these two very recent events:

The first is a boat lost in New Zealand because apparently the paper charts available for a region are not as detailed as the electronics ones: Charts blamed for yacht sinking - Northern Advocate - Northern Advocate News

This was a very experienced captain who said: "The wind was good, there was enough moonlight but the navigation chart is on a very big scale with the whole of Northland peninsula on one page without any inserts," he said.

"Vital pieces of information about the island's hydrography is missing that would make it easier, both at night and during the day, for anyone and not just sailors to navigate around."


A cursory look at CM93 charts shows this as very well charted with all of the detail he says are missing from the paper charts.

The second event was from the recent damage at sea of a Pearson Triton on another CF thread. From their blog: "our paper charts were destroyed".

Now, on other threads here, people have assured me that it is impossible to lose paper charts, so I don't know if I should believe the people in that blog.

I bring these two very recent events up to show that there is no safe quarter in not having electronic charts or relying on paper for proper detail.

MarkJ has hit the nail on the head - it is just a short matter of time until a wholesale change takes place like it always has.

Roller furling, fin keels, fiberglass, Loran/GPS, motor cars, giving up landline telephones, graphical user interfaces, computer mice, word processors - history is littered with advances or modal changes that were unspeakable or unimaginable for a vertical portion of a single generation. Once they pass through, the change is always instantaneous.

Ever see a person under 30 confronted with a rotary telephone dial? That is what people looking at paper charts will be like in a relatively short time. Heck, it is almost that way with paper road maps now. I know I am that way when confronted with sight reduction tables.

Of course I know I am wrong on this

Mark
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Old 02-02-2015, 16:52   #20
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I probably won't be long for this thread because battling bad reasoning exhausts me, but consider these two very recent events:

The first is a boat lost in New Zealand because apparently the paper charts available for a region are not as detailed as the electronics ones: Charts blamed for yacht sinking - Northern Advocate - Northern Advocate News

This was a very experienced captain who said: "The wind was good, there was enough moonlight but the navigation chart is on a very big scale with the whole of Northland peninsula on one page without any inserts," he said.

"Vital pieces of information about the island's hydrography is missing that would make it easier, both at night and during the day, for anyone and not just sailors to navigate around."


A cursory look at CM93 charts shows this as very well charted with all of the detail he says are missing from the paper charts.
Sounds like he lacked the chart of the appropriate scale... From the Comments section of the article cited:

Quote:
"....but the navigation chart is on a very big scale with the whole of Northland peninsula on one page without any inserts," he said

The right chart is NZ 5121 Cavalli Passage at a scale of 1:20000.

Case closed.


Mungo - 04:00 PM Tuesday, 27 Jan 2015
John Harries' take on this issue seems pretty reasonable, to me...

Do You Still Need Paper Charts? Part 1

Do You Still Need Paper Charts? Part 2

But, you know me, I'm one of those aforementioned dinosaurs ;-) Certain places I would just not be comfortable without paper, but I'm obviously in the minority today...

And, I'll be done cruising by the time that Wholesale Change occurs ;-)
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Old 02-02-2015, 17:12   #21
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Sounds like he lacked the chart of the appropriate scale...
If he had electronics charts, he wouldn't have been caught out without the correct scale chart. Were you trying to make my point for me?

On the other hand, that whole passage area looks dicey to me. Even with electronic charts, I probably would have chosen a different, and more open, route. And definitely not do it at night.

Since I enjoy fencing with you Jon, have you ever re-read any of your postings and think "damn, I sound just like my grandfather"?

We are all clearing the way for change...

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Old 02-02-2015, 17:15   #22
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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but I'm obviously in the minority today...
Oh, I think you are firmly in the vast majority on this forum.

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Old 02-02-2015, 17:26   #23
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Digital charts will displace paper charts. They are easily kept up to date, they don't rot and rip but they do require energy and electronic devices to view them on / with... devices which also can get out information on the charts.

Electricity becomes mission critical. So more reliable devices...back ups, redundancy, more efficient and more reliable energy systems will make the paper charts into dinosaurs...

They are still pleasant like reading a paper book... and I suspect that some will plot the digital charts and use them for quite some time.
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Old 02-02-2015, 17:39   #24
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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They are still pleasant like reading a paper book...
That is an interesting comparison that may have parallels here. The very first time I picked up a Kindle I was uncomfortable for about 90 seconds - and then never wanted to use a paper book again. I could hold it anyway I wanted, if my grip slipped, I didn't lose my place, I could search a book at will, it had an immediate and built in dictionary for all those big words, I could easily read multiple books at once - switching between them at will without putting them in storage or searching them out, change font size, etc.

However, I have met many people (all older than me, but I don't know if that is valid data) who hate Kindles or any kind of electronic reader. They seem confused with it and tell me they feel locked into a linear experience and can't browse a book or do anything except read from beginning to end. They say the experience of reading is ruined for them because they don't get to physically flip pages or get the smell of a book (on a boat, that is pretty gross to me).

They actually have problems reading from an electronic device rather than a paper one.

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Old 02-02-2015, 18:16   #25
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I've learned never to make predictions about where technology will take us. I recall when the Commodore 64 came out, and I proclaimed loud and vociferously: "64K! Who would ever need 64K of RAM! Ridiculous."

I'm a man firmly planted in both camps with regard to charts. I like my digital charts. I use them more, and in more ways, than my paper. They accompany me in the cockpit through blustery winds and rainy days. But I definitely prefer a full-size chart when I need to see the big picture. And a wet chart is still a chart. A wet iPad ... not so much. My Garmin handheld is pretty bomb proof, but without electrons it's not even a useful paperweight. Like I said earlier, I like both.

There is this fallacy that newer technology supersedes older formats. Sometimes this is the case, but just as often the new and the old create a new normal. I'll keep carrying paper charts when I can. I'll use digital most of the time, but when the zombie apocalypse strikes, or when Al-Qaeda or the Barton Creek Mennonites take over the world, I'll be glad to have those paper charts.
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Old 02-02-2015, 20:04   #26
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
That is an interesting comparison that may have parallels here. The very first time I picked up a Kindle I was uncomfortable for about 90 seconds - and then never wanted to use a paper book again. I could hold it anyway I wanted, if my grip slipped, I didn't lose my place, I could search a book at will, it had an immediate and built in dictionary for all those big words, I could easily read multiple books at once - switching between them at will without putting them in storage or searching them out, change font size, etc.

However, I have met many people (all older than me, but I don't know if that is valid data) who hate Kindles or any kind of electronic reader. They seem confused with it and tell me they feel locked into a linear experience and can't browse a book or do anything except read from beginning to end. They say the experience of reading is ruined for them because they don't get to physically flip pages or get the smell of a book (on a boat, that is pretty gross to me).

They actually have problems reading from an electronic device rather than a paper one.

Mark
I reckon you have hit the nail with that post.
I have had a Kindle for a couple of years now and have read more than 200 books on it with a few hundred more on my computer and endless online.
For other books with pics etc I usually download to the IPad.Nothing against paper(books or charts) but now find little use other than when in the library.
The same as you just last week in a group of about 10 people all a little more senior to me none would have a bar of electronic readers.
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Old 02-02-2015, 20:25   #27
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

If you are more comfortable using a paper chart for a particular purpose, then that is what you should use. You are far more likely to enjoy the navigation experience using a tool that you are comfortable with.

I personally no longer use paper charts as I find that almost every facet of chart-based navigation is quicker and easier (for me) electronically.

Electronic charts have the additional advantage of enhancing positional awareness. During a sail, my position is updated constantly on the electronic chart and I can overlay AIS, RADAR etc. It is extensive, real time information. When using a paper chart, there is significantly more "head down" time concerned with the work of taking bearings, plotting fixes and GPS positions, up the companionway, down the companionway etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There are places, like the archipelagos of Sweden and Finland, where it is really totally impossible to plan a passage without a paper chart. Because you can't pick a route out of the maze by just looking at one section at a time. It is literally impossible to do it without paper.

This is a technical problem which probably could be solved. My idea is that you should be able to program criteria for danger conditions or safe water......
This is precisely what route planning software is good at. Most will allow you to set a minimum depth and the software will not plot a route over such areas. I believe such a feature is a ECDIS requirement.

It will plot an optimum route through the archipelago, for your particular boat (from polars) and for the weather conditions expected (from Gribs) (you can even stipulate that you don't want to sail in more than 25kts for example).

This is near impossible on a paper chart
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Old 02-02-2015, 20:26   #28
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

paper charts FTW
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Old 02-02-2015, 21:08   #29
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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If he had electronics charts, he wouldn't have been caught out without the correct scale chart.
No... he was caught out because he wasn't using a chart of the appropriate scale for the job in hand. He obviously had never heard of the 'one inch' rule.

If all he had was that chart he should have stayed clear of the land... if he wanted to close the land he should have either been using a larger scale paper chart or electronic charts.

I use electronic charts all the time... triple redundancy....and I also carry and use paper charts, primarily for planning.
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Old 02-02-2015, 22:07   #30
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Airliners cross oceans in a day. Pilots used to carry very heavy flight bags that contained all of the paper data to cover their route and alternates that they may need. Some airlines are now using IPad type devices for all this information, in addition to the electronic displays built into the aircraft.

I still carry paper charts, but use electronic charts with redundancy so that no single equipment failure will cause an issue. I have not actually used the paper charts in the past 25 years. I have only needed to use the backup electronic system on two occasions. The zoom problem is not much of an issue if your have a reasonably large display.
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