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Old 08-02-2015, 05:47   #271
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Several years ago, I had a port light stove in by a large breaking wave. It waterlogged all the electronics at the Nav station as well as the chart. The electronics never worked again, but we were able to still use the soggy BA chart, even though it split down the middle -- we plotted positions with a handheld Garmin Gecko (remember those?) that had been stashed in a drawer. The paper eventually dried and was still usable, the electronics eventually dried and were still unusable.

So, some personal experience there. S**t does happen.
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Old 08-02-2015, 05:57   #272
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

I'm not arguing that a boat under-prepared to use electronic charts throw away their paper charts. The experience you describe certainly fits that description.

My argument has been that it is entirely possible now to use solely electronic charts and charting - and that the doomsday scenarios continually thrown about (total loss of all ability to use anything electronic, terrorists attacks on the GPS system, nuclear warfare, asteroid impacts, etc) - are not only improbable, but fantastical.

Of course I don't mean that if one put all their eggs in a single basket by having minimal electronics gathered together at a chart table with a vulnerable port over it should be relying solely on electronic navigation.

You are in the minority of sextant users and will truly be a dinosaur soon!

I'm not sure how maintaining a DR requires paper charts?

Mark
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Old 08-02-2015, 06:09   #273
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

My main "nav station" - Garmin map 60, absolutely waterproof, eat 2 AA battery / 24h. Agree, handheld gadget like that can be useful as spare for big boats with good plotters also. And netbook ASUS + GPS, AIS - much more comfortable via biggest screen. With this devices detailed paper charts are not needed! But "long-scale", any case are needed, I think. Sometimes I print such charts on my printer, for example from Navionics site via caching software - not for navigation, but for "long-view", and for drawing my progress while sailing.
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:08   #274
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Vestas was also relying on paper charts the same as their electronics. In other words, neither were used properly or with sufficient skill.

Mark
Well, we can assume the appropriate paper charts were being carried aboard VESTAS, as required by the Notice of the Race. But, by "relying on", are you inferring that they actually LOOKED AT them ?

There would seem to be plenty of room for doubt about that, to me...

;-)
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:12   #275
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Well, we can assume the appropriate paper charts were being carried aboard VESTAS, as required by the Notice of the Race. But, by "relying on", are you inferring that they actually LOOKED AT them ?

There would seem to be plenty of room for doubt about that, to me...

;-)
End result is the same, the grounding was caused by a navigator not doing is job properly.
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:15   #276
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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The electronics never worked again, but we were able to still use the soggy BA chart, even though it split down the middle -- we plotted positions with a handheld Garmin Gecko (remember those?) that had been stashed in a drawer.
I still have and use my Gecko occasionally. Love it.
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:19   #277
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I'm not arguing that a boat under-prepared to use electronic charts throw away their paper charts. The experience you describe certainly fits that description.

My argument has been that it is entirely possible now to use solely electronic charts and charting - and that the doomsday scenarios continually thrown about (total loss of all ability to use anything electronic, terrorists attacks on the GPS system, nuclear warfare, asteroid impacts, etc) - are not only improbable, but fantastical.

Of course I don't mean that if one put all their eggs in a single basket by having minimal electronics gathered together at a chart table with a vulnerable port over it should be relying solely on electronic navigation.

You are in the minority of sextant users and will truly be a dinosaur soon!

I'm not sure how maintaining a DR requires paper charts?

Mark
Well, the situation I described happened in 2005, so I don't believe it was a situation of being "under-prepared" for anything, save for perhaps the conditions we were in.
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:20   #278
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Well, we can assume the appropriate paper charts were being carried aboard VESTAS, as required by the Notice of the Race. But, by "relying on", are you inferring that they actually LOOKED AT them ?

There would seem to be plenty of room for doubt about that, to me...

;-)
The point I have repeatedly made to those who want to blame Vestas using electronic charts for hitting the reef is that they also had paper charts on board and were using them to the same skill level and proper care that they were using their electronic charts.

If they had paper charts on board, by definition they were navigating by them. Others have pointed out that one must use all tools at their disposal. It may even be a legal requirement.

If they did not look at their paper charts, they made a mistake. If they did not properly use their electronic navigation tools, they made a mistake.

Do you disagree that the mistake was not theirs alone? Or do you really think the mere presence of an electronic chart put them on that reef?

Many of us who use electronic charts understand this point - who routes and navigates while underway using a chart zoomed out to show the entire ocean they are in? This is just not the way it is done by anyone with experience and skill with electronic charting. There are many, many ways they were navigating incorrectly with their tools. Even their depth sounder.

Now before you go on about how these were professional navigators, etc, ask yourself if you really believe they were using that tool properly.

And don't give me that "siren song" argument because these were professional navigators.

Mark
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:21   #279
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I'm not arguing that a boat under-prepared to use electronic charts throw away their paper charts. The experience you describe certainly fits that description.

My argument has been that it is entirely possible now to use solely electronic charts and charting - and that the doomsday scenarios continually thrown about (total loss of all ability to use anything electronic, terrorists attacks on the GPS system, nuclear warfare, asteroid impacts, etc) - are not only improbable, but fantastical.

Of course I don't mean that if one put all their eggs in a single basket by having minimal electronics gathered together at a chart table with a vulnerable port over it should be relying solely on electronic navigation.

You are in the minority of sextant users and will truly be a dinosaur soon!

I'm not sure how maintaining a DR requires paper charts?

Mark
I suppose you could record your DR on a paper towel ...?

The scenario I described above was not "fantastical," it was very real. And it could happen as easily in 2015 as a decade ago.

As for my using a sextant. It's only something I learned in the last few years, not so much as any sort of backup but because it is fascinating to me. Call it what you will, but I call it a beautiful thing and I think folks who scoff at it are missing out on something special. Just my $0.02, there.
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:28   #280
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Well, the situation I described happened in 2005, so I don't believe it was a situation of being "under-prepared" for anything, save for perhaps the conditions we were in.
You were definitely unprepared to use solely electronic navigation. Most of us were in 2005.

But you keep bringing this argument into play in 2015. You may now be similarly as unprepared, but that is by deliberate choice. Others are not, although that point seems to escape some here.

I have never argued that everyone should go all electronic - unlike you and others stating everyone needs paper charts, while implying that those who don't have them are lesser navigators and lesser intelligence (or at least very naive).

I have only stated that it is possible to go all electronic now, and have further postulated that the near future may bring this forth in ways that really do make paper charts dinosaurs (the subject matter here).

Mark
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:37   #281
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You were definitely unprepared to use solely electronic navigation. Most of us were in 2005.

But you keep bringing this argument into play in 2015. You may now be similarly as unprepared, but that is by deliberate choice. Others are not, although that point seems to escape some here.

I have never argued that everyone should go all electronic - unlike you and others stating everyone needs paper charts, while implying that those who don't have them are lesser navigators and lesser intelligence (or at least very naive).

I have only stated that it is possible to go all electronic now, and have further postulated that the near future may bring this forth in ways that really do make paper charts dinosaurs (the subject matter here).

Mark
You put a lot of words into my mouth there, which are unsupported by my previous posts. The only thing I have suggested is that people who trust their electronics 100 percent (and I am not one of them), will forego paper. Simple as that. I know and respect navigators who don't carry paper charts, and this is simply an area of disagreement for us. I can foresee in future travels not having easy access to paper and out of necessity being forced to rely entirely on electronics. It doesn't mean that I will feel entirely comfortable being in that position.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:11   #282
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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The point I have repeatedly made to those who want to blame Vestas using electronic charts for hitting the reef is that they also had paper charts on board and were using them to the same skill level and proper care that they were using their electronic charts.

If they had paper charts on board, by definition they were navigating by them. Others have pointed out that one must use all tools at their disposal. It may even be a legal requirement.

If they did not look at their paper charts, they made a mistake. If they did not properly use their electronic navigation tools, they made a mistake.

Do you disagree that the mistake was not theirs alone? Or do you really think the mere presence of an electronic chart put them on that reef?

Many of us who use electronic charts understand this point - who routes and navigates while underway using a chart zoomed out to show the entire ocean they are in? This is just not the way it is done by anyone with experience and skill with electronic charting. There are many, many ways they were navigating incorrectly with their tools. Even their depth sounder.

Now before you go on about how these were professional navigators, etc, ask yourself if you really believe they were using that tool properly.

And don't give me that "siren song" argument because these were professional navigators.

Mark
Seems we're pretty much in complete agreement, I see nothing to quibble with in what you're saying...

However, the point I have repeatedly tried to make, is that the value of a paper chart in the case of the navigation of VESTAS on that leg - and as is often their vaiue to me when sailing myself - is the ability to see far greater detail relative to the 'Big Picture', when used in conjunction with ECS... Had VESTAS' navigator simply looked at the BA chart of the Indian Ocean - Western Part after passing Mauritius and turning north, the existence of the Cargados Carajos Shoals would have been revealed to him immediately, AT A SINGLE GLANCE, which would not have been the case when looking at their route on a computer screen, set to a similar scale...

Especially for a navigator who might be tired, or preoccupied at the moment with weather routing or tactics at the expense of simple navigation, I think the far greater amount of detail contained on paper charts of equivalent scale can be of great value... And I still believe the single, SIMPLEST action that could have avoided VESTAS' screw-up, would have been to have at some point merely looked at BA 4702 or its equivalent, and noted the existence of the lighthouse on Ile du Sud that they virtually wound up running into, rather than attempting to 'find it' at a much higher level of zoom on their computer...
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:36   #283
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Seems we're pretty much in complete agreement, I see nothing to quibble with in what you're saying...

However, the point I have repeatedly tried to make, is that the value of a paper chart in the case of the navigation of VESTAS on that leg - and as is often their vaiue to me when sailing myself - is the ability to see far greater detail relative to the 'Big Picture', when used in conjunction with ECS... Had VESTAS' navigator simply looked at the BA chart of the Indian Ocean - Western Part after passing Mauritius and turning north, the existence of the Cargados Carajos Shoals would have been revealed to him immediately, AT A SINGLE GLANCE, which would not have been the case when looking at their route on a computer screen, set to a similar scale...

Especially for a navigator who might be tired, or preoccupied at the moment with weather routing or tactics at the expense of simple navigation, I think the far greater amount of detail contained on paper charts of equivalent scale can be of great value... And I still believe the single, SIMPLEST action that could have avoided VESTAS' screw-up, would have been to have at some point merely looked at BA 4702 or its equivalent, and noted the existence of the lighthouse on Ile du Sud that they virtually wound up running into, rather than attempting to 'find it' at a much higher level of zoom on their computer...
Absolutely.
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Old 08-02-2015, 11:53   #284
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Jon,

Attached are the raster and zoomed out vector charts of that region that I borrowed off of another poster. Yes, the reef is "more" obvious on the raster chart, but would you blithely ignore a route drawn through that region on that vector chart?

The statements about "how do you know to zoom in when you don't see anything there" is just foolish given the attached chart.

I guess we just disagree on what minimum level of situational awareness and alertness are required for navigation.

Mark
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Old 08-02-2015, 12:13   #285
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Ooooooooh..... my brain hurts...

My too smart for its own good phone has been 'offline' since I passed through Sydney yesterday on my way to Auckland (I don't have an unzud sim card).... google maps still thinks I'm in NE Victoria...
My apologies... but he did ask?

BTW. I don't care whether people use electronics, paper, or stone tablets... and I'm not out to save anyone's life with my wisdom beyond theirs. I doubt if most accidents are caused primarily by the type of charts one uses.
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