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Old 05-02-2015, 23:57   #226
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Check the archives for endless discussion of this issue.
I agree but as you see from the endless discussion...it goes On and on and on and ..
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:14   #227
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Even with citations it's "yet another internet post".
We disagree. Citations that I can go study and draw my own conclusions make quite a difference to me.

To me, citations are the difference between information and the low roar of the babble.
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Old 06-02-2015, 03:48   #228
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I agree but as you see from the endless discussion...it goes On and on and on and ..
Yet you persist in logging into the thread.

Funny that.
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:14   #229
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by jkindredpdx View Post
As for smartphones etc. I was talking about A-GPS Assisted GPS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia... and yes, I've used an iPhone, and a Win8 tablet on the water and the mountains. I'm just recommending people test their GPS in a few scenerios, like deep canyons and cell dark spots, before assuming they will work. The situation where OpenCPN thought I was 300 miles away in Bellingham, I was in a no cell signal zone on Mt Hood but there was a WiFi router and DSL in the cabin.
Again, assisted GPS is simply a way of getting a more rapid first fix. Without it, the phone/tablet acts just like any other GPS you have on board - at some point, it may need to download from the satellites a new almanac and this will take a few minutes. But most of the time, if it is in regular use, it will not need to do this and the difference between AGPS and GPS is negligible.

The other thing AGPS does is help when there is a lot of physical interference and multipath signal from the satellites. This occurs in downtown areas of large cities, etc. This will also be a problem with any marine-grade GPS - it isn't a phone/tablet thing except for possibly the difference in antennas.

It tends to not be a problem on open water.

Yes, many applications attempt to "locate" you through the ISP address you route through. We are often "found" over a thousand miles away in an entirely different country when shopping on the internet, etc.

However, this should not be an issue with GPS, and I don't think OCPN uses router information as position input. If your tablet is continuing to do this, you either have a very poorly designed tablet or some other piece of software in the middle. I have no experience with your tablet or the geolocation software you are using.

For example, if I turn off my tablet's GPS while leaving the wifi connected to an ISP, none of my marine software attempts to locate me using the ISP address. In fact, pretty much none of the apps of any type I have try to do this, except for browsers and a couple of others that use browsers.

I can tell you that you seem to be having an issue that is not common, nor indicative of the way most phones/tablets work.

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Old 06-02-2015, 07:29   #230
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
We disagree. Citations that I can go study and draw my own conclusions make quite a difference to me.

To me, citations are the difference between information and the low roar of the babble.
Actually we mostly agree, I don't put much stock in various pronouncements on the internet generally or this forum specifically. If you go back and look at my post you will see that I was trying to gently mock you for the irony of what you wrote. Different phrasing on your part would have left me with no grounds to do so.

That part where we disagree is that to me 'citations' from authoritative sources do not, for the most part, provide information, but instead a more informed opinion. Mostly that is a fine distinction, but sometimes there is a big difference.

Finally, I am impressed that your know the correct spelling of 'citation', most folks would have spelled it with an 's'. I don't normally play the spelling police, but I am happy to give kudos for good spelling.
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Old 06-02-2015, 13:06   #231
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post

Finally, I am impressed that your(sic) know the correct spelling of 'citation', most folks would have spelled it with an 's'. I don't normally play the spelling police, but I am happy to give kudos for good spelling.
I don't think I've ever known citation to be cpelt with an 's'...maybe I should get out more.....
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Old 06-02-2015, 13:14   #232
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Ooooooooh..... my brain hurts...

My too smart for its own good phone has been 'offline' since I passed through Sydney yesterday on my way to Auckland (I don't have an unzud sim card).... google maps still thinks I'm in NE Victoria...
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Old 06-02-2015, 13:15   #233
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
That's interesting information.

Do you have any citations for any of these claims?
These are not 'claims' they are facts.

Qualcomm Gobi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jammer Six, you are more than welcome to try it for yourself. Go out of cell range and see how long it takes to get a solid GPS signal.
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Old 06-02-2015, 14:02   #234
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Some people trust their electronics (and their batteries, and their wiring) 100 percent.

The rest of us carry paper charts.
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Old 06-02-2015, 14:06   #235
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

For an example, my iPad is both out of cell range, and has the cellular radio turned off anyway.

I just turned on a program that accessed the GPS and it took 3 seconds to obtain a fix - and that fix was dead-accurate to any reasonable expectation of GPS.

As I understand it, the specification is that it could take up to 12.5 minutes to obtain a first fix if it has not been used in a long time and/or has moved to a sufficiently different location that it needs to re-acquire the satellite almanac again.

If the above has not occurred (ie, the GPS has been used relatively recently and has not been moved far away from its previous fix), then a fix acquisition should take ------ about 3 seconds or so.

I have a handheld dedicated marine GPS with no cell capability that acts the same way as my iPad in this regard.

Is this incorrect? Or is my experience unusual?

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Old 06-02-2015, 14:08   #236
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Some people trust their electronics (and their batteries, and their wiring) 100 percent.

The rest of us carry paper charts.
And a sextant with its requisite peripherals? This point keeps getting conveniently glossed over whenever the "fragility of electronics" argument is made.

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Old 06-02-2015, 14:37   #237
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Some people trust their electronics (and their batteries, and their wiring) 100 percent.

The rest of us carry paper charts.
And without those electronic devices do you trust you really know where you are on those charts at 3pm.
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Old 06-02-2015, 14:49   #238
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Some people trust their electronics (and their batteries, and their wiring) 100 percent.

The rest of us carry paper charts.
It is beating a dead horse. Everyone has their opinion.
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Old 06-02-2015, 15:27   #239
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Oh don't get me wrong. Although I plan to learn the sextant prior to heading out for my voyage, I do have many electronic devices on board. But than I also pay for insurance and have (hopefully) no intention in using it.


However I was in Iraq, flying at night and the GPS on board failed. Yes I pulled out my personal Garmin 12XL and circled until it acquired and returned to my base.


Then on another occasion two aircraft where out on a mission and the GPS on both failed while in flight; and yes of course in the darkness of night. Once again I pulled out the personal GPS and got us where we needed to go. And yes we even had maps to break out if all else failed.


Having a backup or two or three is always a good idea.
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Old 06-02-2015, 15:50   #240
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
And without those electronic devices do you trust you really know where you are on those charts at 3pm.
Only if you have some experience. No not exactly where you are but close enough to get home.
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