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Old 04-02-2015, 01:22   #151
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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You make something more foolproof, they'll just send you a bigger fool.
I worked with an engineer once who, when it was sugested he make something fool proof replied " I have given up making things fool proof after I discovered fools are such ingenious bastards"

I have a large collection of charts which I have accumulated over the years and will retain them aboard even though they are a nuisance to protect from damage and store however if I was starting this cruising game again I would not be buying anywhere near as many paper charts purely on cost grounds, at $40 or so each it takes a lot of charts to cover the thousands of miles of coast around Australia.

I think that like much else paper charts will slowly become unavailable as fewer of us buy and use them. I notice fewer of them in chandleries these days and it is many years since I have seen an Almanac where once they were fairly common. I still have a sextant aboard but it is pretty useless without a Nautical Almanac.

Ease of use has a large impact on the reliability of any system including navigation systems. Ease of use will dictate navigational equipment aka computers and digital charts. I am fairly certain that in a world where your refrigerator can send a message to you to buy more milk your electronic charts will update themselves any time they get near an internet connection.

I was born into a world where the only electronic device in the home was a single radio receiver. Today we are immersed in electronics technology which we fairly commonly trust with our lives - so it will inevitably be with navigation.
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Old 04-02-2015, 01:36   #152
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post

A). Direct hit of major Coronal Mass Ejection from Sun. Would wipe out most satellites in orbit.
B). War with a country that had ASAT capability.
C). A cyber attack that got into the GPS control system.
D).
There is still some confusion about electronic charts and electronic position fixing. These are two different technologies.

If the GPS system turns off the electronic charts will still work.

Electronic charts can be used with traditional navigational techniques.

If the GPS system goes down a boat with paper charts is fundamentally no different to one with electronic charts. Both boats have lost their primary position fixing system, but both boats still have suitable charts and can continue to plot their position using traditional navigational techniques.
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Old 04-02-2015, 01:46   #153
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

If the GPS system goes down a boat with paper charts is fundamentally no different to one with electronic charts. Both boats have lost their primary position fixing system, but both boats still have suitable charts and can continue to plot their position using traditional navigational techniques.

What a powerful argument for traditional navigation skills, sextant and all!

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Old 04-02-2015, 02:41   #154
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
What a powerful argument for traditional navigation skills, sextant and all!
But you don' even need a sextant... The Dutch journalist Henk Bezemer sailed from Holland to the Azores with nothing but a (paper) map and a good watch, and a lot of improvisation. (He also did it in a Waarschip 570, which is tiny). The thing is that if you're only interested in finding out in what approximate direction land is you don't need a lot.
In the 16th century they just sailed southwest till the butter melted and then turned west. Then eventually you hit America.
Once near the coast you just use your eyeballs.

But this does require you to understand how navigation works.
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Old 04-02-2015, 02:44   #155
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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If the world comes to a technological end I will happily use paper charts to navigate my way home. If you want to curl up and die in place because the world has just become to difficult a place without all the electronic goodies, feel free to do so.
Tell me, what are your preparations for when the asteroid strikes?
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Old 04-02-2015, 06:29   #156
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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If you can contact someone on radio or signal another vessel down, they can help escort you to safety.
Depending upon where you happen to be sailing, that may not always be possible... ;-)


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Old 04-02-2015, 06:57   #157
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I don't have a link in english. I can tell you, that I've worked for the Danish Sailing Association and I'm a writer for the Danish sailing magazines. In the course of that, this question was raised and I did a lot of research, including asking the Danish Maritime Authority.

Their answer back was what I have quoted - any vessel that is aweigh must carry two independent of each other methods of navigation. at the present time, one of these must be paper charts (unless you have an EDCIS system - then you are exempt).

I do believe that this requirement stems from the IMO (not 100% sure on that), which means many other nations will also have those laws on the books
So what action is taken against Uncle Bubba in his camouflaged duck boat? The family in the bow rider waterskiing on the river? The family cruising the lake in their pontoon boat? The guy fishing from a canoe?Many of these boats have no charts or chart plotters on board or in use.

I can understand the requirement for commercial ships but I find it difficult to believe these requirements would apply to the examples above. If they did, that would effectively kill the recreational boating industry.
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Old 04-02-2015, 07:00   #158
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I worked with an engineer once who, when it was sugested he make something fool proof replied " I have given up making things fool proof after I discovered fools are such ingenious bastards".
My high school physics teacher once stated "You can make something foolproof but not student proof."

This was after I had independently tested ohms law with a lab setup without taking into account the wattage rating of the resistors.

I think the plume of smoke gave me away.
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Old 04-02-2015, 07:25   #159
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
There is still some confusion about electronic charts and electronic position fixing. These are two different technologies.

If the GPS system turns off the electronic charts will still work.

Electronic charts can be used with traditional navigational techniques.

If the GPS system goes down a boat with paper charts is fundamentally no different to one with electronic charts. Both boats have lost their primary position fixing system, but both boats still have suitable charts and can continue to plot their position using traditional navigational techniques.
I have no confusion between electronic charts and position fixing.

At some level I agree that there is fundamentally no difference between electronic and paper charts. At a usability level though electronic charts are entirely geared to position fixing via electronic means, and have no convenient means of permanently marking, labelling and storing navigation info from other sources.

It's this non-fundamental part will burn you bad. Specifically translating bearings and ranges from objects in the real world into marks on an electronic chart that collectively become a fix.

With OpenCPN I can see using the measure function to draw a line on a specific bearing. Short of using a grease pencil on the screen I don't see a way to move on to a second let alone a third line for a fix. Also this requires figuring out the reciprocal course, either mentally or on paper, but an extra step either way which could lead to errors. Working on paper I use a parallel rules in part to eliminate this source of error. If you accidentally pan the map or change the zoom, everything you have grease pencilled onto the screen becomes garbage and you start over.

I could use the route function to create lines on the chart. This would work for multiple bearings and isn't susceptible to panning and zooming but is slow and cumbersome and there is no way to label the fix. Also you wind up with a lot more line length on the chart which starts to obscure needed info and congest the map.

There is no way to mark a circle of position in any way that I have found.

Perhaps different charting systems have these capabilities but I doubt it.

In a relatively open area of water along a coast this would be an acceptable if tiresome way to chart and navigate. In congested waters, not so much.
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Old 04-02-2015, 07:45   #160
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Mark

I fully agree - if you have EDCIS then you do not need paper charts and that is the official agreement

Not since 2012.
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Old 04-02-2015, 08:06   #161
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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I can think of several more situations:

A). Direct hit of major Coronal Mass Ejection from Sun. Would wipe out most satellites in orbit.
B). War with a country that had ASAT capability.
C). A cyber attack that got into the GPS control system.
D).



Adelie
Really?

a) Maybe but the new satellites are shielded. If that WERE to happen all society would break down cause it would also take out all the rest of our satellites, so I think we would have bigger problems.

b) In our lifetime maybe 1 or two satellites would get taken out. Bigger problems because this means we are at war with a big party - think world war.

c) This is why new GPS picks up russian, Japanese, to-be European, and American GPS systems. Besides, if it were hacked, you would not know until it was too late, even with paper charts... unless you were using a sextant.
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Old 04-02-2015, 08:50   #162
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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With OpenCPN I can see using the measure function to draw a line on a specific bearing. Short of using a grease pencil on the screen I don't see a way to move on to a second let alone a third line for a fix. Also this requires figuring out the reciprocal course, either mentally or on paper, but an extra step either way which could lead to errors. Working on paper I use a parallel rules in part to eliminate this source of error. If you accidentally pan the map or change the zoom, everything you have grease pencilled onto the screen becomes garbage and you start over.
I use OpenCPN to do traditional navigation. One circle of position is easy. For example if doing a fix on a Racon, draw the bearing / LOP and then measure the distance. I still use the route tool for that as it leaves a WP mark. Two COP's would be more difficult. But I will give that one some thought. Maybe a new feature request.

I often will do a set and drift when route planning from the comfort of my desk at home.

Here is a running fix that I did for a person studying for the ASA coastal nav exam. I used the route tool and reversed the route to get a reciprocal.



Here is one I did with labels - really the "proper" ones.

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Old 04-02-2015, 09:03   #163
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

Paper Charts are absolutely necessary. I'd never be without them.
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Old 04-02-2015, 09:04   #164
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Are paper charts a dinosaur?

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Tell me, what are your preparations for when the asteroid strikes?

As far as navigation goes:

Coastal I would carry large area chart(s) for the whole route planned, small area charts for intended destination and bailout destinations, pencil, compass, dividers, parallel rules, sextant, tables to use the sextant for range, binos and hand bearing compass.

Offshore I have a sextant, plotting sheets, parallel rules again, the Kolbe compact almanac and sight reduction book. I will be getting a metal box to keep 3-5 Casio Quartz watches plus 3 mechanical watches in. Watches would have their error rates logged. I am working on a spreadsheet to create almanac pages for the moon going out several years. These will be printed and carried.

Assuming a lightning strike where I lose everything including the watches and I have let the mechanicals run down and stop then:
Get the watches going
Determine approximate time from my DR and a noon sight. Or by using time of sunset and my DR.
Determine actual time shooting a round of stars and the moon. Then adjusting clock time forwards and backwards recomputing the fix until the moon line agrees with the stars. (This is the Letcher method for lunars, tedious but not very difficult.). Once the time correction for the watches is established I'd check it once a week or so but otherwise wouldn't need to reshoot the moon since I have reestablished accurate time.

Since I have cheap plastic sextant and compact tables & almanac this is not a "continue the voyage" system but a "get me into port for repairs" system.


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Old 04-02-2015, 09:11   #165
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Re: Are paper charts a dinosaur?

If an asteroid hits the earth, none of that will help you - or at least be of any relevance to you.

I don't think you fully understand the physics of an asteroid strike or the reason the question was asked of you (hint, think of relative probabilities for the last one).

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