Ancient navigation

[FSMike]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

-----Link pasted to a most interesting event binding navigation, the Polynesian and the European.

Paddling with the world's most grueling outrigger canoe race

Hokule'a's visit to New York 6/5-6/8 is connected with the Hawaiian Air Lines
Liberty Challenge, which features outrigger canoe racing.
This is all part of the festivities in NYC to celebrate World Oceans Day.

See Hokulea.com.

[rognvald]

"And meanwhile, it is unlikely any of those Europeans of the age of discovery, whom you so vaunt, if stripped of all instruments (compass, choronometer, sextant, and astronomical tables) would have been able to achieve a tiny fragment of the spectacular success of the polynesians in their navigation"
Muckle


Muckle,
Have you forgotten about the navigational expertise of the Vikings that sailed, discovered and explored 900 years before Captain Cook? Historians have never verified but only conjectured the use of any instruments(sun stone, sun dial perhaps equating with Polynesian aids) to accomplish crossing the North Atlantic from Norway to Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland and eventually the shores of North America. They used their five senses to interpret wave swells, clouds, birds, memory and sailors tales as they sailed out of sight of land. So, this is not truly a Polynesian skill but one that Europeans used as well. Secondly, to demean a serious contributor(Polux) by inferring that his comments are not valid because he does not have the sailing resume you have is disingenuous and has no relativity to a historical discussion. Both you and he have contributed interesting and valuable information to this discussion which I hope will continue until the discussion is exhausted. Good luck and safe sailing.

[rognvald]

Here's an interesting short piece on Viking navigation. Good luck and safe sailing.
sciencenordic.com/how-vikings-navigated-world

[Connemara]

I wouldn't have the balls to try that.

Connemara

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Here's an interesting short piece on Viking navigation. Good luck and safe sailing.
sciencenordic.com/how-vikings-navigated-world

First Evidence of a Viking-Like 'Sunstone' Found

BTW - it generally recognized that the "grapes" were really currants.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by jackdale

First Evidence of a Viking-Like 'Sunstone' Found

BTW - it generally recognized that the "grapes" were really currants.

Jack,
You're absolutely correct. The existence of grapes, as were known to Europeans, had an absolute Northerly limit of New England in the 9th, 10th and 11th Centuries. And, Leif the Lucky learned some valuable salesmanship from his father Eric the Red--who named the West coast of his new discovery--Greenland. Why shouldn't Leif promote the discovery of grapes in the New World(Newfoundland, Labrador and beyond) to the thirsty Northmen? For those interested in this fascinating period of world discovery, may I suggest Helge and Anne Stine Ingstad's essential primer: The Viking Discovery of America, Checkmark Books, 2001. A must for anyone who loves the sea. Good luck and safe sailing!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Jack,
You're absolutely correct. The existence of grapes, as were known to Europeans, had an absolute Northerly limit of New England in the 9th, 10th and 11th Centuries. And, Leif the Lucky learned some valuable salesmanship from his father Eric the Red--who named the West coast of his new discovery--Greenland. Why shouldn't Leif promote the discovery of grapes in the New World(Newfoundland, Labrador and beyond) to the thirsty Northmen? For those interested in this fascinating period of world discovery, may I suggest Helge and Anne Stine Ingstad's essential primer: The Viking Discovery of America, Checkmark Books, 2001. A must for anyone who loves the sea. Good luck and safe sailing!

Damn.. and there was I thinking that grapes in Europe dated back to long before the Vikings went walkabout.. introduced from the East.
The present American grapes used to make wine etc today were imported vines as the native fruit was considered 'not up to par'..
Sultanas and all that..

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Damn.. and there was I thinking that grapes in Europe dated back to long before the Vikings went walkabout.. introduced from the East.
The present American grapes used to make wine etc today were imported vines as the native fruit was considered 'not up to par'..
Sultanas and all that..

Boatman,
Wild grapes also grew in North America although the native indians never discovered the joys of the vine as the ancient Greeks and Romans. Perhaps that's why you've never heard of a Native American Orgy! Good luck and safe sailing.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Well, this condescending little piece is basically just a strawman. I didn't set out to give a comprehensive history of world navigation, now, did I? I was simply objecting to your completely untenable position that the polynesians were not navigators by any means (now don't try to reinvent that!) which you sought to defend by suggesting that their voyaging was only one way, drifting, and accidental. Further I was correcting your statements concerning just who was responsible for what in the history of navigation and "discovery". Amusingly you have now taken the entirely other tack, and sought to hoist me with that petard, but it is a wasted effort, and rather silly, as on reflection you must realise, if you are honest with yourself. Since your previous arguments were shown to be completely bankrupt in a post you did not reply to, because you cannot do so while maintaining your previous pose, you seek to distract by putting words in my mouth and gesturing at knowledge you tell me I don't have, which of course you have zero warrant to do. However you still, bizarrely, repeat the bankrupt assertion that the polynesians did not "discover" anything in the pacific, and that their journeys were merely accidental, even after the stone cold refutation by scientific means I posted previously. That is some front, mate. Just so you can perhaps this time actually read the paper, here it is again:

Stone tools from the ancient Tongan state reveal prehistoric interaction centers in the Central Pacific

And no, it isn't the only one, but one of many scholarly publications similar. However it completely refutes your nonsense about one way drift only, and eviscerates your bizarre pose about "discovery" even on the extremely cherry picked terms you staked out for it.

And all this simply because there was a thread celebrating polynesian achievements in navigation, which were FAR more impressive than you suggest with this last, equally dismissive and disdainful post. As you note, the overwhelming majority of European navigational and exploratory achievements were gained in a comparatively very short time. This was obviously because they had access to a concatenation of technological advances many of the most significant of which were borrowed or received from other cultures, as noted. And… so what? So freaking what? What is your actual point?

This post was about the polynesians. And you and others chose to make it, once again, about the Europeans. As if the world hasn't already heard enough about their achievements… And no one was saying the Europeans, particularly Cook, hadn't achieved anything. Even great things… but who cares? This was NOT about the Europeans, can't you understand that?

And meanwhile, it is unlikely any of those Europeans of the age of discovery, whom you so vaunt, if stripped of all instruments (compass, choronometer, sextant, and astronomical tables) would have been able to achieve a tiny fragment of the spectacular success of the polynesians in their navigation of the world's mightiest ocean over thousands of years, including a trading empire which has long been known of, and recently thoroughly demonstrated as fact. From your posts it is clear you had not read any major literature in the area and basically had no idea about any of this, but chose to bluster on in any case, perhaps after a few quick google searches, and never having done any practical ocean navigation yourself, at all. I have spent literally whole years of my life at sea learning and practising techniques similar to those of the ancient polynesian navigators. I have spent HUNDREDS of nights aboard, on passage, under the stars, learning their orientations, and watching their movements watch to watch, day to day, month to month longitude to longitude, season to season, hemisphere to hemisphere, as I cross dark ocean spaces. I have the UTMOST respect for the polynesian sailors, both because I have tried these things, at length, and because I know that they WORK, and that they are HARD and take enormous awareness of the sea, the stars, the waves… all of it. But you, who has never sailed out from the shores of Europe to another place, or across any ocean, lecture me about how little the polynesians' achievements were. And, of course, it is I who must learn at your feet…

Not a very good show, is it?

It seems you have a really bad memory, that post of mine was a reply to one of yours that did not talk only about polynesians neither about polynesian navigation skills (that I never denied) but one where you have said:

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

.. Europeans were NOT the earliest great explorers of the Oceans, which title likely goes first to the Polynesians, and then the Arabs and Chinese. ...

and of course, the polynesians did not navigate oceans but a single one and the navigations were only usual and frequent between Islands of the same arquipelago or near by archipelagos. More far away places remained isolated for centuries.

Chinese and Indians only sailed locally on the Indian and in less measure on a small part of the Pacific. The Europeans were the first to sail all oceans of earth and to map it. Comparing the sea exploration of Europeans with the ones of the Polynesians is just ridiculous.

Regarding this "And meanwhile, it is unlikely any of those Europeans of the age of discovery, whom you so vaunt, if stripped of all instruments (compass, choronometer, sextant, and astronomical tables) would have been able to achieve a tiny fragment of the spectacular success of the polynesians"

Well it was not important and it is just a footnote in history but circa 1550 a Portuguese captain that had fallen in disgrace to redeem himself to the king picked a small open boat and having as crew only a native Indian sailed from India to Portugal, as fast as he could, to be the first to give the news to the king of an important Portuguese victory. He managed to be the first to bring the good news and was forgiven by the king having again a "decent" ship.

I doubt he had a compass, much less a sextant or astronomical tables, but as I said that is just a small footnote on the history of navigation and discoveries.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems you have a really bad memory, that post of mine was a reply to one of yours that did not talk only about polynesians neither about polynesian navigation skills (that I never denied) but one where you have said:

and of course, the polynesians did not navigate oceans but a single one and the navigations were only usual and frequent between Islands of the same arquipelago or near by archipelagos. More far away places remained isolated for centuries.

Chinese and Indians only sailed locally on the Indian and in less measure on a small part of the Pacific. The Europeans were the first to sail all oceans of earth and to map it. Comparing the sea exploration of Europeans with the ones of the Polynesians is just ridiculous.

Regarding this "And meanwhile, it is unlikely any of those Europeans of the age of discovery, whom you so vaunt, if stripped of all instruments (compass, choronometer, sextant, and astronomical tables) would have been able to achieve a tiny fragment of the spectacular success of the polynesians"

Well it was not important and it is just a footnote in history but circa 1550 a Portuguese captain that had fallen in disgrace to redeem himself to the king picked a small open boat and having as crew only a native Indian sailed from India to Portugal, as fast as he could, to be the first to give the news to the king of an important Portuguese victory. He managed to be the first to bring the good news and was forgiven by the king having again a "decent" ship.

I doubt he had a compass, much less a sextant or astronomical tables, but as I said that is just a small footnote on the history of navigation and discoveries.

Weak.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by rognvald

"And meanwhile, it is unlikely any of those Europeans of the age of discovery, whom you so vaunt, if stripped of all instruments (compass, choronometer, sextant, and astronomical tables) would have been able to achieve a tiny fragment of the spectacular success of the polynesians in their navigation"
Muckle


Muckle,
Have you forgotten about the navigational expertise of the Vikings that sailed, discovered and explored 900 years before Captain Cook? Historians have never verified but only conjectured the use of any instruments(sun stone, sun dial perhaps equating with Polynesian aids) to accomplish crossing the North Atlantic from Norway to Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland and eventually the shores of North America. They used their five senses to interpret wave swells, clouds, birds, memory and sailors tales as they sailed out of sight of land. So, this is not truly a Polynesian skill but one that Europeans used as well. Secondly, to demean a serious contributor(Polux) by inferring that his comments are not valid because he does not have the sailing resume you have is disingenuous and has no relativity to a historical discussion. Both you and he have contributed interesting and valuable information to this discussion which I hope will continue until the discussion is exhausted. Good luck and safe sailing.

With all due respect, I deny that Polux has made any serious contributions to this thread. Rather all he has done is to try to deny that there is anything to discuss at all, because the Europeans and their methods are the only ones that matter. Do try to remember that this thread is about POLYNESIAN NAVIGATION. Flatly denying there is any such thing is not only simply wrong, it is the opposite of a useful contribution at all. This has been dealt with above. As to the experience, it is not an attempt to demean, but simply a reality. Indeed it was Polux who was so attempting and who continues to demean the skills and expertise of sailors (and indeed entire cultures) using methods he has no knowledge of, likely theoretically, and certainly not practically. The complete lack of experience in this wise absolutely is relevant when a person seeks to critique something in practical terms, and ultimately the practise of navigation is practical or it is nothing at all. Polux may be a serious contributor on other threads, and I acknowledge that. He also has a long history of talking about things he has no practical and little other knowledge of at all, as if he were a world expert, holding very strong opinions, and never acknowledging his being wrong at any point whatever that I can recall, nor again on this thread when he is shown stone cold to be simply wrong, by scientific means. It is a very strong opinion to completely demean an entire people in terms of what is likely one of their most important cultural achievements, and a very striking one at that, and his posts on this thread have chiefly been a mixture of ignorance, misdirection, and condescension by turns. His lack of knowledge of, much less experience of instrumentless navigation is directly relevant, as is his complete lack of ocean navigation experience at all, since it is these very practises he is seeking to demean, critique and disparage.

As to the Viking navigators… sure why not? But how is this relevant to the Polynesians? As it happens I have a pair of iceland spar calcite "sunstones" myself, and have practised using them (chiefly in the cloudy waters off Scotland, and Scandinavia), without too much success it has to be said. No ravens as yet, though…

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Delancey

I always found stick charts to be pretty interesting works of art onto themselves.

Polynesian Stick Charts

Very nice example, but it's quite obvious that it hasn't be updated for some time and needs correcting, probably easier to get the latest edition

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Factor

FMD - I didn't really believe that people still thought that there was such a thing as racial superiority.

Far too many. Sadly.

[Neptune's Gear]

Have you guys forgotten Cheng Ho? There is quite a bit of evidence about his voyages, years before Columbus, and in a ship 4 x the size. See https://sites.google.com/a/westwood....overed-america
or do a google search on Cheng Ho. Some of the shipyards are still there, and his grave is in a known location you can visit.

I certainly would not consider his voyages as "local".

At one point, for a long period, the Chinese were WELL ahead of the European civilization. Empries rise and fall. As will the current "leading" civilizations. There is way more to history than you were taught at school, regardless of where that school was.

I have huge respect for the early navigators, Polynesian, Chinese, Arab, Viking, or European.

Oh, and there was one comment about speaking "Polynesian". There is no such language.

Here, in NZ, the local indigenous language is Maori, distinctly different to Fijian or Tongan
although with distinct similarities.

Ka kite (Maori informal good bye)

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Have you guys forgotten Cheng Ho? There is quite a bit of evidence about his voyages, years before Columbus, and in a ship 4 x the size. See https://sites.google.com/a/westwood....overed-america
or do a google search on Cheng Ho. Some of the shipyards are still there, and his grave is in a known location you can visit.

I certainly would not consider his voyages as "local".

At one point, for a long period, the Chinese were WELL ahead of the European civilization. Empries rise and fall. As will the current "leading" civilizations. There is way more to history than you were taught at school, regardless of where that school was.

I have huge respect for the early navigators, Polynesian, Chinese, Arab, Viking, or European.

Oh, and there was one comment about speaking "Polynesian". There is no such language.

Here, in NZ, the local indigenous language is Maori, distinctly different to Fijian or Tongan
although with distinct similarities.

Ka kite (Maori informal good bye)

Absolutely. Though I think the "Treasured Ship" of Zheng He (Cheng Ho), capital ship of his enormous fleet, was rather larger than that. Indeed it may have been the largest functioning wooden sailing ship ever built.

As to "local" it is a ridiculous slight. The fleet sailed the entire North Indian ocean, into the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea, as well as the Java and the South China sea and flanked the Western Archipelagos of the Pacific, at the very least. And that was merely that particular fleet.