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Old 28-03-2016, 17:10   #136
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Dam! and to think all this time I was under the belief Henry Ford perfected the production Line............learn something everyday on CF
Aye.. CF is a wonderment.. unlike the Polynesians it can navigate everywhere and nowhere baby..
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Old 28-03-2016, 18:04   #137
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post

(...)

I would suggest simply that the existence of such charts implies that the voyages were more than one way trips to another new island. If you're never going away, there's no need for a record of where you've been, along with what flow direction you can detect. Those charts were created for a reason, long before tourist interaction was a factor. So, yes, they (the Polynesians) had navigators.

(...)
I too am amazed with the charts. That picture was not overlooked. I remember seeing it some time back in National Geographic, I think.

Do you think stick charts were also used in Polynesia? I talked to local people there they never mentioned the charts. (They did mention wave navigation though.)

b.
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Old 28-03-2016, 18:41   #138
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Re: Ancient navigation

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The word discovery is used when people originated from a far away place discover lands that were unknown to that culture and get back to report that discovery.

There were certainly many sailors that reached America brought by storms and the favorable current. That does not make it a discovery. To be discovered the sailors have to go there and to get back reporting the discovery.

In that sense many of the Polynesian Islands were not discovered by the Polynesians, for instance Easter Island, since they did not return to bring home that discovery.

That is the difference between exploration and migration and it relates with the concept of discovery.
More Eurocentric drivel, Polynesia wasn;'t discovered by white folk, neither for that matter was Australia, just because some warlike imperialistic people invaded a country does not make it a discovery.
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Old 28-03-2016, 18:48   #139
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Tell that to all the European non Catholics that were burnt, hung, drawn and quartered etc by the Holy See.. in the name of Christ..
Talk about freekin Glass House's
NOOOOBODY expects the spanish inquisition, - our main weapon is fear, fear and suprise, our two main weapons ....... etc etc
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Old 28-03-2016, 18:49   #140
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Oh.. I guess that's all right then..
Of course it is, non Christians are not real people, and of course they couldn't have discovered anything.
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Old 28-03-2016, 19:28   #141
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Re: Ancient navigation

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More Eurocentric drivel, Polynesia wasn;'t discovered by white folk, neither for that matter was Australia, just because some warlike imperialistic people invaded a country does not make it a discovery.
It seems that you have some problem regarding that eurocentric thing, maybe because western culture has its origins here? I don't get it, you cannot change history neither can change the fact that your native language is an European one as in all western culture countries all over the world.

If Europeans had not discovered Australia, colonize it bringing their western culture, if Australia was kept isolated, it would still be at the stone age phase with its only native population.

Discoveries were not made only by Europeans regarding European culture and the increase of the known world on those parts.

It regards any culture that send ships to discover unknown lands, to map them, to trade with them or to dominate them. A discovery implies always the increase of knowledge regarding the world by a given culture. Obviously to be a discovery the ships have to come back to the home land with precise information regarding the new found lands.

Chinese before isolating themselves made a lot of explorations and discoveries, increasing their knowledge of the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_exploration

Also you seem to have a problem in what regards considering Europeans a warlike Imperialist people. Most voyages had as object trading and certainly Europeans were not more warlike than other regions, only more advanced technologically and with better naval skills.

Regarding Australia it seems you did not get yet the idea about what is a discovery. A discovery means not only an occupation. It is obvious that if Australia was inhabited that some humans find the way there. Discovery implies the new knowledge of an unknown and till then isolated place by another culture. A migration without feedback and links to the original departing point is not a discovery.

Implies a precise location and mapping. If not Europeans who do you think it has discovered Australia? Where is the evidence of that?
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Old 28-03-2016, 20:02   #142
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Re: Ancient navigation

Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond? It explores why it is that the cultures from the Middle East and then Europe succeeded in conquering and dominating most of the world. He of course recognizes the role of steel weapons and guns (although it was the Chinese that invented gun powder) but the biggest advantage these people had was the availability of domesticated beasts of burden. These horses, oxen and cattle were not only the machines of labor but also the carriers of diseases to which their owners eventually developed resistances. The native peoples introduced to these diseases had no resistance and died out in massive numbers that far exceeded anything a conquering army could do.


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Old 28-03-2016, 20:04   #143
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Ancient navigation

I'm afraid I find this discussion has devolved to pointlessness.
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Old 29-03-2016, 02:44   #144
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
"Given that you completely neglect, for example, Egypt, Mesopotamia, China and India in your apparent suggestion that I have little grasp of The History of Mankind (your caps) and your lionisation of "Western European Man" as being the sine qua non (and even more absurdly, originator!) of said civilised history, "
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Muckle,
When I mentioned Greece, Rome and Persia, it was in no way disregarding Egypt and Mesopotamia, but by inference inclusive of the Mediterranean basin. That was obvious to me but perhaps not to you. Sorry.
In regards to China, it wasn't until an Italian by the name of Marco Polo(and others) "discovered" their civilization in the 13th Century that their civilization became "known" but they offered little to advance Western Civilization thereafter(being a closed insular society as opposed to the wandering Europeans) although they invented paper, gunpowder and simple printing. However, India is a much different case as they are known to have invented Algebra, Trigonometry, Geometry, the Binary System, Astronomy, Navigation and Medicine. But, the bottom line is not who invented areas of discovery but what people did with that knowledge to advance the world by their use. And, it is European Man who holds that historical laurel. The names are too numerous to mention but here's a few: Copernicus, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Kepler, Einstein, Hawkins, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Verdi, Chopin, Vivaldi, Wagner, DaVinci, Michelangelo, Raphael, Bosch, Durer, Van Dyck, Lautrec, Gauguin, Von Gogh . . . (we'll leave out the explorers and great conquerors to save time). My point is that we do not seek to disparage or undervalue contributions from other cultures, but there is no culture that exists in the world today that has done more to advance the civilization of the world than European Man . . . although today, it has become quite fashionable to rewrite History to promote a political and sociological agenda for the One World Crowd. Sorry, Muckle . . . the facts are the facts no matter how much the New Age Historians attempt to distort World History. Good luck and safe sailing.
It is interesting that you talk of rewriting history for a sociological agenda. What you said in your original post was this:

"… but if you are at all conversant with the recorded history of the world, the impact of European Man has been the greatest force in the advancement of Civilization in Art, Music, Philosophy, Science, Technology and Industry and if it were not for European Man, the world would appear much as it did before the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires brought Man from a hunter/gatherer existence to Civilization."

Which is as unequivocal in its exclusion of Egypt, Mesopotamia, India, and China as it is downright, flat out wrong. Also, your statement about the "discovery of China" is pretty telling, as is your lacuna where it comes to Chinese technological, archaeological, artistic and other cultural achievements. Your dismissal of them is breathtakingly off.
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Old 29-03-2016, 02:46   #145
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Boatman,
The Spanish Inquisition was concerned about Jews and Muslims who failed to convert or keep the faith. Few Protestants were involved. Here's a quick read for you. Best, Rognvald

Spanish Inquisition | Spanish history [1478-1834] | Britannica.com
No. The Spanish Inquisition was initiated to root out and destroy the Cathars, who were Christian/Agnostic heretics. It expanded dramatically afterwards, to include Jews, Muslims, and indigenous aboriginal Americans, and their culture, which was, in the latter case, wholesale destroyed with the utmost prejudice.
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Old 29-03-2016, 02:46   #146
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Look, mate:

I find your use of some adjectives verging on rude (some examples from your most recent post visible above). I understand you find the way I express my views as not to your liking. I cannot please everybody, especially when I do not post at CF to PLEASE people. This is not Facebook and I am not out for likes. I read to learn and post to share and to discuss (at times showing views and attitudes quite opposite to the mainstream). We all act like this, to varied extent.

There is no discussion and no growth when everybody shares the same view.

I think we both have what they call a sharp pen. At times like this, it might benefit us if it were just a bit less sharp. If we were offshore, I would just board your ship and chop off your dirty tongue with my sword. ;-) The luck is, we are not.

Here, I can only tell you your verbal aggression is at the levels where you might consider talking to an aggression management specialist. Should you be in denial and claim you do not need one ... below I am giving you some points that may help us calm down and come back to a more moderated manner of exchanging our opinions.

Firstly, the Kingdom of Tonga is 169 islands strong. This is not thousands.

Secondly, I am not European and I am not Eurocentric. I may well be eccentric. This is the name the politically correct followers of the main doctrine often give to the ones that walk their own path. I am OK with an eccentric. I do not walk my path to show off or offend. I walk it for it chose me.

Thirdly, I doubt Europeans annihilated Polynesian culture. One, that we do not know exactly what that culture was all about hundreds of years ago, two that during our last visit there the culture seemed to be doing very well: their dance and music seemed on par (if not above) folk dance and music in Europe. We saw carvings, we heard stories and we witnessed local tradition well alive (e.g. raising the youngest boy in the family as a girl). Polynesian was spoken everywhere, even in NZ.

I can just imagine that you have your vision of Polynesia from your visit that maybe was at a different time and spanned across different islands. I have mine from visiting the chain from FP, thru the Cooks, Tonga, NC (I found NC more Micronesian than Polynesian in fact) to NZ.

Interestingly, in Polynesia no one called me a white prejudiced eurocentric. You did. Perhaps you think Polynesians need advocates and protectors and that you are well suited to be one. I do not think so.

Take care, be good (a Polynesian parting phrase, translated),
barnakiel
So, I am sorry I offended you and that you think me "aggressive" but I find it really quite extraordinarily aggressive, on a thread dedicated to celebration of a remarkable sailing and specifically navigation achievement by those of Polynesian culture, demonstrating the techniques you completely disparage as being useless and "not navigation", that you post your opinion that the Polynesians were in no way navigators at all, that their techniques amounted to nothing more than drifting and witch doctory. Given that this is a globally accessible forum, and that the Polynesians now mostly have mobile internet tech, I feel it behooves us to treat their cultural achievements with the respect they so richly deserve, and not dismiss them out of hand while in essence talking up European supremacy. I think they've had quite enough of that.

So as to your points:

Firstly, Tonga was NOT only 169 islands in a single archipelago, in terms of its trade and influence. See my response below to Polux for more on that.

Secondly, you don't need to be European to be Eurocentric, and if you think me "mainstream" in some sense and just following some party line, you don't know me, which of course you do not.

Thirdly, I have seen plenty of firedancing (on the Bastille day festival at Nuku Hiva signally!), seen the statuettes carved for tourists, and the tattoos, and heard one or two stories. But I have also noted that nearly 100% of Polynesians are now Catholics, Mormons or some other nonsense, play boules, eat baguettes, and drink pastis. Don't tell me that their polynesian culture remains strong, or hasn't been deliberately suppressed for centuries.

As to your welcome in Polynesia, perhaps when you are next there you should print out a pamphlet explaining to them how their ancestors could not navigate at all, happened upon islands only by accident, and were merely kidding themselves along in a superstitious way that, having lived for 2500 years across the island groups of the Pacific Ocean, they did it all by false faith in hocus pocus… What kind of a welcome do you think you would get from them in that case?
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Old 29-03-2016, 02:47   #147
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Re: Ancient navigation

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Cultural exchanges and cultural enrichment is another way to see discoveries and explorations. Not many know that a small country of traders and sailors (Phoenicia) with a small population give origin to the first alphabet from where many others, the Greek, Latin, Arabic, Hebrew, and the one we are using here were derived.

Iberia nations legate their own languages, that today are the official languages of 29 countries and native language of 720 million people. The British had done the same and today English is the official language of 64 countries and native language of 400 million people.

Regarding navigation Europe, as a whole, were the ones that mapped the world and discovered precise ways to navigate and to determine latitude and longitude. They were also the ones that developed top sailing and sailing ships till the days of motor ships. It was also them that lead the way regarding that transition that lead to modern ships.

Maybe you can point me to the great accomplishments of Polynesian culture, even regarding navigation and their contribute to the actual state of the art?

I do not wish to undermine the navigational talents of the Polynesian but referring to them on a global way like this is obviously doing the opposite on a ridiculous scale.
This is just flat out wrong. The crab claw rig windward sailing vessel of the Polynesians is clearly a fore and aft lateen rig, which at least is the independent achievement of the Polynesians and may well predate the earliest European adoption of such a sailing form. Europeans were NOT the earliest great explorers of the Oceans, which title likely goes first to the Polynesians, and then the Arabs and Chinese. The Arabs were sailing close to the whole of the North Indian and some of the South Indian and South East Asia regularly making trips to China by trading ship by the middle of the ninth century, fully FOUR CENTURIES before the Europeans had managed to begin significant Ocean exploration, or frankly even more than bumbling. The compass came from China, as did the rudder, via, who else, the Arabs. Ever wondered why the overwhelming majority of stars used for navigation have Arab names? Perhaps you should try Ocean navigation yourself one day, and become familiar with them?
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Old 29-03-2016, 02:48   #148
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Re: Ancient navigation

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"... Though he had no previous knowledge of writing or mapmaking, Tupaia drew a chart of the Pacific that encompassed every major group in Polynesia and extended more than 4,000 kilometres from the Marquesas to Rotuma and Fiji..."

Some time back three Russians in a small boat were found heading from France to England "navigating" by a road map taken from a road atlas. I think this map was somewhat more precise than Tupaia's map. I am not sure these guys will go down in navigation history. BTW among the many items left by Cook (some sources say well over 10000 charts, maps, drawings, books and artefacts, Tupaia's legendary map has never been found. That's what is making it legendary.

Nobody is taking from that guy his talents as a translator, interpreter or intermediary. He sure understood his home waters better than newcomer foreigners. But this does not make one a navigator.

Cruising does not make one a sailor, sailing does not make one a navigator. Navigating does.

b.
Tupaia's map is not only NOT "legendary" and nonexistent, as you state, but very well known and has been extensively studied. Why would you even suggest this? Here is a nice link to a good recent paper on the subject which I find quite convincing as to its interpretation:

http://www.jps.auckland.ac.nz/docs/V...as%20chart.pdf
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Old 29-03-2016, 02:48   #149
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Re: Ancient navigation

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A navigator is a person trained and skilled in navigation.

Ancient Polynesians do not apply along the same lines that ancient shamans do not apply as medicine doctors.

If we were to believe in all that is written in books, we would have to believe this depiction of a Polynesian dancer to be spot on.

Why should we accept definitions of Polynesian navigators (that lived centuries ago) from a modern day white guy (having his interest in selling adventure books)?

I cannot enlighten you, I am not on the mystic wagon.

b.
This shows me you have not read Lewis' book, which is highly skeptical and scientific in its outlook, extraordinarily detailed, learned, thoroughly referenced and researched, and an academic work of the first order.
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Old 29-03-2016, 03:02   #150
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Re: Ancient navigation

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It seems that you have some problem regarding that eurocentric thing, maybe because western culture has its origins here? I don't get it, you cannot change history neither can change the fact that your native language is an European one as in all western culture countries all over the world.

If Europeans had not discovered Australia, colonize it bringing their western culture, if Australia was kept isolated, it would still be at the stone age phase with its only native population.

Discoveries were not made only by Europeans regarding European culture and the increase of the known world on those parts.

It regards any culture that send ships to discover unknown lands, to map them, to trade with them or to dominate them. A discovery implies always the increase of knowledge regarding the world by a given culture. Obviously to be a discovery the ships have to come back to the home land with precise information regarding the new found lands.

Chinese before isolating themselves made a lot of explorations and discoveries, increasing their knowledge of the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_exploration

Also you seem to have a problem in what regards considering Europeans a warlike Imperialist people. Most voyages had as object trading and certainly Europeans were not more warlike than other regions, only more advanced technologically and with better naval skills.

Regarding Australia it seems you did not get yet the idea about what is a discovery. A discovery means not only an occupation. It is obvious that if Australia was inhabited that some humans find the way there. Discovery implies the new knowledge of an unknown and till then isolated place by another culture. A migration without feedback and links to the original departing point is not a discovery.

Implies a precise location and mapping. If not Europeans who do you think it has discovered Australia? Where is the evidence of that?
It is rather ironic that you select a very narrow definition of the word "discovery" to suit precisely your meaning, which being the particular (and less commonly used) meaning of a "scientific discovery" which is one in which a simple "discovery" of the kind anyone can make, becomes exalted to mean ONLY a discovery which is recorded in a manner which specifically excludes it from a non Eurasian tradition of scholarly learning and precise recording. Amusingly in so doing, you are hoist by your own petard as you make it perfectly clear that you are only capable of seeing (or allowing to be seen) the lived human experience from the perspective of the very culture you are saying can only have been the originator of said "discoveries". Further, your spectacular narrowing of the definition to exclude every form of even reporting which does not contain "precise location and mapping" hilariously overreaches itself, and in fact excludes almost every major European "discovery" prior to Cook himself! Virtually none of these involved either "precise mapping" in any substatial way. Heck, by that definition the British didn't discover the islands of Scotland until around 1820. If you can't see how this logic is both self serving and circular, then I can't help you further on that.

As to your continued and totally flat out wrong assertion that ALL voyages by the polynesians across their 25 century long period of occupation of the vastly dispersed island groups of the Pacific were accidental one way drifts and involved no actual navigation, it is just a canard. Your only concrete example, which is in itself therefore a form of special pleading, is Easter Island. You choose simply to ignore the substantial other data which completely contradict your view of "accidental drift only" voyages, which you have to maintain is true of ALL voyages for your weirdly dismissive attitude towards the Polynesians to persist, in order to maintain that pose.

However there is PLENTY of evidence contradicting your weak and unresearched thesis. And for starters, this is a complete knockdown of it, with concrete, scientifically demonstrated evidence:

Stone tools from the ancient Tongan state reveal prehistoric interaction centers in the Central Pacific

Or is a recent scholarly paper involving advanced technique identification of origins of artefacts and double blind by reference to similar finds in another island group, by the Australian National University, and published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences not good enough for you?

Really nothing further needs to be said on the matter, though no doubt you are going to try. However I am done with this thread, other than to issue an apology on behalf of sailors in the Western Tradition of navigation to the superb Polynesian navigators of the Hokulea Polynesian Voyaging Society. We don't all think like this!

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